olisuds wrote:

I didnt want to get involved in this thread again but since we are talking about pre-production now it has piqued my interest. This is just my opinion and I dont wish this to escalate into an arguement.

JC its good to see you contributing your knowledge to this thread. Some very interesting information indeed and I always enjoy discussing the pre production side of Star Wars. You are a very experienced collector and you have a great deal of knowledge of the pre production process although I have to say I respectfully disagree with a few things.

I dont believe Spains production was larger than Lili Ledy. It was smaller in comparison and this is evident from the scarcity of PBP and POCH figures in comparison to Lili Ledy. Also Spain had to supplement their production with imported figures from Asia factories which is evident from the large amount of the figures on PBP cards that are not PBP figures.

And if Spain did not have the capacity to make sufficient figures for the Spanish market during the PBP era, combined with the issue of poor quality production, I find it highly unlikely that they had the capability to produce all their figures during the earlier POCH era. Although I agree that it makes little sense for figures to be made in Asia and assembled / painted in Spain. I think more likely all POCH figures were made in Asia. This explains identical mold details to figures widely available in the US and the mixed parts that POCH figures have.

Regardless of weight and cost, molds were certainly shipped overseas. In fact the initial molds were made Stateside and shipped overseas to Asia. I know this because I have pieces in my collection made by the mold makers Stateside before the mold was shipped to Asia. i.e. Bench shots. So I dont see why molds wouldnt be shipped to Mexico or Spain for that matter. Whilst I dont tend to pay much attention to very small discrepencies in COO and copyright markings I think it is evident from identical mold details and COO families with changed/alterated COO markings (No COO raised bars, No COO scar etc) that the same molds were used in different countries and were therefore shipped overseas at some point.

Also I have never heard of molds being made from first shots or even sculpts. It is my understanding that the 3D pantograph would create the steel mold from the hardcopy. If the steel molds had been made directly from first shots the figures would be notably smaller and with less detail. Companies like Palitoy would generally only receive hardcopies, protomolds etc for the purpose of photography and marketing.

I'm sure there will be disagreeing opinions to what I have written. I just hope they can be worded politely. I have little respect for rudeness regardless of someones level of experience or knowledge. I put it down to just language and misenterpretation but suggesting someones opinions are "totally wrong and useless" is a poor way to enter into a conversation. So please even if you disagree, lets keep it polite

Hi Olisuds,

Yes, you were right about First-Shot...They should received HC to avoid shrinking making their molds. Sorry for the confusion.
Now, for the rest, every opinion is respectfull. The only danger is to see these theories taken as fact just because they fit well people's worries... but still un-proven.
Unfortunately, i haven't all the answers. I just can speak about what i know...  

JC

Hi JC, Yes I agree it is dangerous to theorise especially when theory is sometimes wrongly assumed to be fact. I think we are all guilty of that though

Like you, I have also had the good fortune to communicate with senior Kenner employees in design and engineering and I know that sometimes the information from one source conflicts with another or perhaps even after 30 years peoples recollection of their own job might not be as accurate and this can lead to misenterpretation. A Kenner Designer or Engineer might be able to give a detailed description of the production process but might be vague on international operations and importing/exporting. A marketing Director may understand these elements better but he may lack the ability to explain the the production process to the same degree. Piecing all this information together from different sources after such a long period of time is extremely difficult and leaves a lot of this open to misenterpretation.

In the 1980's Spain was an economically poor country and their manufacturing techniques were not advanced. The only reason some production took place in Spain was because of cheap labour. They would have required great guidance in setting up anything as advanced as a plastic injection operation and putting in place the required quality control standards let alone have the capability to produce their own steel molds. Neither did Mexico or Brazil. I would say perhaps only Japan did.

Yes Steel molds are very heavy and it would have been costly to ship and transport them across the world. However creating new steel molds requires a great deal of engineering expertise and is also very costly.

PBP figures have NO COO scars and POCH figures have Made in Hong Kong because the molds originated elsewhere. A new steel mold created from a hardcopy would have no COO or copyright markings.

I was typing this during the day, in between meetings. I had no time to catch up with the new posts of JC and Oli (great to see you chimed in BTW!). So maybe I will repeat things which already have been addressed. Sure you won’t mind then.

From JC’s previous post I understood that the machines for plastic injection probably harbored a number of steel moulds to produce the figures.  That makes sense as it would increase production capacity, in terms of produced figures per week.
I think it is safe to assume that the moulds in one factory, were copies of each other, in other words belonged to the same mould family. For instance in case of Leia Hoth, all moulds in a certain factory had  either the rough or a smooth emblem. In case of IG-88, a factory had either the moulds with hollow or solid eyes. The question how these mould differences arose in the first place, is an interesting one, which I like to see answered one day (different steel moulds from different hard copies?), but let’s  do so in a preproduction thread (who likes to start?).  

I think it is also safe to assume that the steel mould copies on one production plant received the same type of COO by using local tools. So that means that all steel mould copies within a factory for instance got a three line COO, a two line COO, or a filled in COO (in case the production facility changed). The differences between the individual COOs on these mould copies were very subtle. So e.g. differences between the alignment of compared to 1980 were common (the hardcore COO hunters know all about them). But you would not expect to see a two line HK COO next to a three line HK COO mould in the same factory.


PLASTIC INJECTION OF EARLY PBP (“POCH”) ’FIGURES: IN SPAIN OR IN ASIA?

Ok, now back to PBP/POCH discussion. Many figures from the early era (“POCH”) have been found with two different HK COOs, from two different mould families.  How can this be explained?

1) In case PBP did plastic injection of these figures, it would mean that they got steel moulds from at least two different factories……
Possible, but not what we have seen in other factories, for instance Lili Ledy, where most figures were derived from just one set of mould copies.

2) Or maybe this can all be explained assuming  that many early PBP (POCH) figures are mixed up figures, made up from PBP produced parts (from COO family A) and imported parts (from a different COO family).  Looking at different paint schemes (POCH and Kenner) appearing combined in one figure, indeed there seems to be hybrid/mixed up figures.

But why PBP needed to import parts from Asia in the first place?  
Was demand exceeding production that fast?  But that seems stange, assuming PBP did have their own fully operational injection station......
...unless there was no such station at that time....


I frankly admit here, I don’t have any proof that the early POCH figures were plastic injected in Asia instead of Spain. Based upon the above I like to think it was this way.
The other way around: Do we have any proof that the figures were plastic injected in Spain? I would welcome any evidence in that direction, and would not mind at all to change my view then,  that’s all part of having an open debate.


Proof can maybe come from a former PBP executive, QC manager,….

Alternatively we could dig a bit deeper into the used steel moulds, or better the COO families which they represent.
TO BE TESTED: IF PBP produced figures in the early period (POCH), it would be logical that they used the exact same steel moulds in the later ear (PBP). Just the same mould but then with the COO removed. No way would they import new steel moulds, especially considering the weight of these heavy things.

So, what seems a good way to test this?
Can we just compare figures from the two eras, POCH vs PBP, and check whether they belong to the same mould family, maybe even for small co-occurring mould defects.  
In case POCH and PBP consequently belong to the same family, it would strengthen the case that PBP did plastic injection from the early start.  
The more often you see that POCH and PBP belong to different families, it hints towards different production facilities, i.e. POCH in Asia, PBP in Spain.

Which figures then?
Just to name a few, which have both POCH as PBP releases. Edit: Off course we have to look at the 'pure' POCH figures here, not the hybrids to get a good comparisson.
- Rebel Commander
- Rebel Soldier
- Bossk
- Chewbacca
- Han Solo
- Luke Bespin (Ground control to major Kahn)



PAINTING EARLY PBP (“POCH”) ’FIGURES: IN SPAIN OR IN ASIA?

With respect to the unique paint apps of early PBP figures. It could be that this was applied in factories in the Far East. But then it must have been done on a Monday after the long weekend before, as the quality is poor compared to Kenner standards. And why using unique colors not seen in other figures?
This makes me think the figures were painted in Spain.


Ok I hope I haven't lost you while reading.

Open for discussion.  

Cheers
Marco

olisuds wrote:

Hi JC,

...In the 1980's Spain was an economically poor country and their manufacturing techniques were not advanced. The only reason some production took place in Spain was because of cheap labour. They would have required great guidance in setting up anything as advanced as a plastic injection operation and putting in place the required quality control standards let alone have the capability to produce their own steel molds. Neither did Mexico or Brazil. I would say perhaps only Japan did.

Hi olisuds,

That's sure communication and infrastructure were not what they are today but the idea that people have of Spain of the 80' is a bit exaggerated. From oficial source numbers, in 1974, Spain was part of the 10 most industrialised countries in the world. At the end of the 70', toy industry was one of the most flourishing industry in spain that exported +60% of its production to other european countries.

And yes, workforce was cheap because life was cheap and Spain wasn't yet in the CEE (not yet 1986), it didn't got CEE obligations that it have today.

Manufacturing techniques were enough advanced to avoid any guidance or advise in plastic injection operation. You just have to look at early "Novedades Poch" and "Borras" catalogues to see what they were able to produce before the SW era... Plastic injection was already in use in the early 70'...

70' wasn't Middle Ages in Spain...    

olisuds wrote:

PBP figures have NO COO scars and POCH figures have Made in Hong Kong because the molds originated elsewhere. A new steel mold created from a hardcopy would have no COO or copyright markings.

100% agree with you!!!! This will be my next question to PBP's big boss...

JC

Here is a couple of pics of my two Luke Bespin. One is an "Imperio" 37/41 back and the other a "JEDI" 65 back.
Just let me know your thought...



JC

Impressing MOCs, JC! Some gems you got there.

Is the Luke on the 65 back a version with the raised bar, same as the Ledy version?

First of all, in the case of Bespin Luke, there is three COO families, each has a unique sculpt to the specific COO, the families are as follows:

- HONG KONG (Large)
- HONG KONG (Small)
- MADE IN HONG KONG

Wether or not there were individual molds or one mold containing several figures as was mentioned earlier, the numbers are as follows:

- The HONG KONG (large) molds contained two figures
- The HONG KONG (small) molds contained two figures
- The MADE IN HONG KONG molds contained three figures


- Injection molded - ??? Anyone's guess  
- Painted and therefore assembled also - Spain

The second Bespin Luke pictured, The PBP El Retorno Del Jedi 65 Back Contains a figure from the MADE IN HONG KONG family. This specific figure has the altered mold with the 'Raised Bar' This specific mold can be found with two alterations, the first has HONG KONG filled and smoothed, the second has the raised bar, how this was done and where, I don't know, all I do know is, the raised bar was drilled from the already smoothed mold or a duplicate of it, as the smoothed area can still be seen and also the bar isn't long enough to have fully erased the words HONG KONG but is long enough to accomodate the word CHINA, how ever this was never added, why? I don't know it just wasn't. the mold was drilled but someone obviously decided against stamping them with CHINA. The first versions of this figure where found in MADE IN CHINA baggies, they may have opted for the simpler, identify the Countryof origin on the packaging rather than the figure, again, who knows, plus I've strayed a little here.
The figure on the Retorno card is slightly easier to explain though:

- Injection molded - Mexico
- Painted and assembled - Mexico




- Caramel Boots
- Chocolate Boots
- Dark Boots (Painted Hip)
- Dark Boots (Unpainted Hip)


Right my fingers hurt, so I'll finish by saying.... JC don't forget it's Christmas coming up and I've been hankering for a Poch MOC Bespin Luke

I knew we could count on The Kahn!

So the POCH Luke on the 37/41 back belongs to a different mould family compared to the European 'dark boots' Luke Bespins.
Assuming just for a moment that both were produced in Spain, the PBP factory would have to get a new set of steel moulds just to produce the latter one. Whereas the moulds for the POCH Luke would be thrown into a corner...
Seems like a waste of expensive moulds....unless at least one of the Lukes was actually not produced in Spain. Maybe both.

The only Bespin Luke COO mold family that appears to have never turned up in Spain i the HONG KONG (small).

this debate was very interesting. Reasonable point of views were showed here.
Now that the post seems a little bit relaxed I want to show you the next figure:

-PBP luke bespin








I hope you like it

Great figure ackbar, here's my set:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
These are the 'dark' boots Luke's and the ones most commonly referred to as 'PBP'. As with the others, these have turned up in numerous Spanish childhood collections, but no Spanish carded examples exist. They could be found on Palitoy and Tri-Logo cards.
 
Interestingly the first figure in this group has very clear melt marks on his back.
 

Stunning set you have here     General Kahn.

As good as your pictures are your comments. Thanks for sharing.

    

ackbar100 wrote:

this debate was very interesting. Reasonable point of views were showed here.

Agree with you, I am happy we can have a TIG gentlemen debate here nowadays.
I hope it will continue, as there is no conclusion yet.  

ackbar100 wrote:

Now that the post seems a little bit relaxed I want to show you the next figure:

-PBP luke bespin

Nice figure indeed.  

Great that the Kahn entered as well.  
Alex: Do these Luke Bespin figures have this typical PBP smell? That might be another indication that they were produced in Spain.

Dr Dengar wrote:

Alex: Do these Luke Bespin figures have this typical PBP smell? That might be another indication that they were produced in Spain.

Yes, Marco, they all have that plastic, chemical type of smell to some degree, the three 'caramel' boots figures definately have the strongest smell.

Dr Dengar wrote:

Alex: Do these Luke Bespin figures have this typical PBP smell? That might be another indication that they were produced in Spain.

General Kahn wrote:

Yes, Marco, they all have that plastic, chemical type of smell to some degree.

Thanks Alex!  
So I put my money on Spanish produced then.

General Kahn wrote:

The three 'caramel' boots figures definately have the strongest smell.

That is maybe a little bit too much information, but at least now we all know where those caramel boots come from.  

China COO Lando Bespin with black neck and blue collar (not from Spain):




Metallic TFP Blaster (from Spain):

@Greg...what country did the lando come from? UK?

I found him in the UK.

Thanks for posting Greg.


About the Lando. is the neck really black (as in the POCH Lando) or dark brown?
Maybe you have a POCH lando to compare to?


About the metallic TFP gun. Never seen this before.

@Marco/Greg...there are several known examples of Kenner black neck lando's, but none of them have the blue line.

Very interesting it was found in the UK, but then again Spain is a very popular holiday destination for us Brits, so if it was found in a childhood collection maybe this is how it found it's way over here?

I remember the UK guy who obtained his childhood Bluestar while being on vacation in Turkey. So everything is possible.

In case we are looking at a true black neck Lando, it would be a first mixed up figure (Class II) using China instead of Hong Kong made limbs.
But again everything is possible.

Greg, did you buy the figure in a lot or was it advertised as a black neck Lando by the seller?
Can you make a high resolution close up of the neck please?

It's definitely black, not dark brown.

He wasn't advertised as anything in particular.

Let's do some more research....plastic injection by PBP in the early POCH era, that is the central question in the debate we are having right now....

Maybe the used steel moulds can tell us something.........

BOSSK



Bossk: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Bossk: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Bossk: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).




CONCLUSION FOR BOSSK: The POCH and PBP Bossk figures do NOT share the same COO family and thus were derived from different steel moulds.


INTERIM SCORE: Is it possible that POCH and PBP figures were derived from the same set of steel moulds?

YES 0/1
NO  1/1

DENGAR



Dengar: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Dengar: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Dengar: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).
]



CONCLUSION FOR DENGAR: The POCH and PBP Dengar figures DO share the same COO family and thus could be derived from the same set of steel moulds.


INTERIM SCORE: Is it possible that POCH and PBP figures were derived from the same set of steel moulds?

YES 1/2
NO  1/2

HAN SOLO



Han Solo: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Han Solo: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Han Solo: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).




CONCLUSION FOR HAN SOLO: The POCH and PBP Han Solo figures do NOT share the same COO family (look at the small and big © !) and thus were derived from different steel moulds.


INTERIM SCORE: Is it possible that POCH and PBP figures were derived from the same set of steel moulds?

YES 1/3
NO  2/3