Thanks Alex.

That might explain why some COO#5 Vaders would have the ejector pin mark on the back of the head while others don't.

Please post some pics, curious about the rough head sculpt. A common thing to COO#5?

On a side note: I have difficulties to distinguish COO#1 till COO#5. They look all very similar.
How many COO families do they comprise?

Thanks for your input on this figure Marco, so this head sculpt isn't the only head sculpt used on Poch Vader figures? That makes sense as you say if the Poch factory only assembled the various parts made in Hong Kong.
Looking at the vaders in the link you provided i see that the fifth figure with the glued on head has the same sculpt. where as the third figure from the left has the same paint apps found on a PBP coo#9 vader with the white paint under the red and the smaller buckle. But the head has the broader nose and wider eyes which is found on coo#6's.  

with regards to the ejector pin mark on the back of his head, this seems to be more common with the earlier coos (coos 1-5). Looking at the loose figures in my collection from coo#6 to the later scarred out and no coo euro variants, these all seem to lack this detail. With the exception (and i'm sure there are more out there) to this coo which is unlisted on Wolffs guide. However I'm only going by my collection and i don't have multiple versions of the same coos only one or two so this is just a theory, Alex has already said that he has a coo#5 without an ejector mark.

@ Alex - I wonder Alex if my unlisted coo with the ejector mark is the same coo as yours? However as you said not particularly relevant to this thread, perhaps best discussed in the vader variant thread

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t223-darth-vader-figure-variants-thread

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the ejector mark on this particular coo#5 is quite pronounced however compared to my other figures.
Also the misalignment of chest paint detail on this figure is actually opposite to what you thought Marco, the red is roughly in the right place, its the white that is offset and has missed the buttons as you can see in this close up pic.

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so definitely a kenner figure, but an interesting one. Cheers Marco

I'm on my phone, but it would appear that your Vader coo is the same as the one I have, where the G.M.F.G.I. 1977 is very much to the right on the inner thigh.

thanks Alex, i'm not sure if that means anything or if its just a coincidence :scratch:. Your theory about multiple heads in a mould sprue tree makes complete sense, so some coo#1s, for example, would have the ejector point mark and others would not. So perhaps there are also no coo variants with ejector point marks   I have 4 coo#1 vaders all with the ejector pin marks. but i also have two coo#4s one with the mark and one without, but also worth mentioning is that both coo#4s have completely different chest and buckle details as well

Dr Dengar wrote:

Only one way to find out: loose Darth Vader variant collectors, please post pics of your COO#5 Vaders here.

Well here is my Vader COO #5





AJ fix  


Hope this helps

Here's a picture of him compared with his Kenner & Palitoy counterparts:

From left to right - Palitoy I, Poch, Palitoy II

The COO is the HK Large (same as the first Poch Bespin Luke's) and the melt marks are present on the figures back.




And a close up:

Congrats Alex on landing another Luke Bespin variant. I've just seen your group shot in your probing questionnaire, impressive!

General Kahn wrote:

It's important to know that this boot colour never appeared on this specific COO family with the exception of this example, so it's safe to say that the legs where almost certainly painted in Spain also.

Great post, Alex!  

I like the conclusion as it is more evidence for the theory that POCH (PBP) only (painted and) welded parts from the HK factories in the early era. And did not produce the parts by plastic injection.

Questions:
- Can the paint scheme of the arms be connected to other Luke Bespin figures
- Can you see evidence that this figure is made out of parts from two COO families, by inspecting for mould differences?

Cheers
Marco

So it seems this figure has paint characteristics of the early era (head) and later pbp era (rest). And no parts seem to be painted in an Asian factory?
Can we speak then about a PBP transition figure?

Interesting figure!

Dr Dengar wrote:

Can we speak then about a PBP transition figure?

Very possible I guess, it really is an interesting figure!

Thanks a lot for this new opportunity to this tread   

Here you are my luke bespin poch. I hope it helps to compare pictures.
Check the color boots, they are different.










cheers

Thanks for posting those pics, Ackbar.  

Your figure looks like the 2nd POCH Luke Bespin variant which is described on Wolff's page.

http://swspaceclub.com/wbobafett/poch-variants/luke-bespin/


When looking at the head, I wonder whether this is the translucent head described in Alex's limeligh:


http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5449p15-my-bespin-luke-limelight-research#90634


If this is the case, this POCH Luke Bespin variant might in fact be a Class II figure (POCH Hybrid), the painted head being derived from an Asian factory, other parts being imported and painted by POCH (PBP). Probably the batch of plastic used for the head was prone to degradation, leading to the discolouration.

Or has the translucent head in the pics above (and on Wolff's page) some unique paint apps which might be an indication of being painted in the POCH (PBP) factory? In that case, it might still be that POCH used the same batch of plastic as we see for other Kenner translucent Luke Bespins.

Just some brainstorming to fuel the discussion...

The sculpts and COO for both of course are the same.

Just some quick snapshots of my Spanish Lobots.

From left to right:

A) Lobot from Spain, greenish yellow paint on brown cyborg part, pale discoloured hands, COO#4, meltmarks on the bottom, big cracks around the neck area
B) Lobot from Spain, greenish yellow paint on brown cyborg part, pale discoloured hands, COO#4, meltmarks on the bottom,

C) Kenner Lobot, pale yellow paint on brown cyborg part, pale discoloured hands, COO#4 (figure was added for reference)

D) Lobot from Spain, sunflower yellow paint on reddish brown cyborg part, pale head, pink hands, COO#3,
E) Lobot from Spain, sunflower yellow paint on reddish brown cyborg part, pale head, pale painted NOT discoloured hands, COO#3,





From left to right: A, B, C (Kenner), D, E.


From left to right: A, B.


From left to right: D, E.



My quick conclusion (open for discussion):

A + B: Class II (Hybrid POCH), arms are Kenner, head is unique for POCH?, but different compared to D/E
D: Class II (Hybrid POCH), arms are Kenner, head is unique to POCH but different than A/B
E: Class I (pure POCH), same head as D, figure is also described here : http://swspaceclub.com/wbobafett/poch-variants/lobot/ )

Cheers
Marco

General Kahn wrote:

The Poch version definately has the exact same paint scheme on the head, but the rest is unique to Poch, and that would appear to be across the board, they always have the pale white hands and the unpainted hip, the boot's on the Poch figure are not as 'orange' as the Kenner/Palioty counterpart.

Thanks Alex! Big + on your way.

So do you agree, this version of the POCH Luke Bespin could very well be a Class II figure, factory welded from imported painted parts from Asia (the head) and other parts which were painted by POCH (PBP).

Dr Dengar wrote:

Great info, JC!

One aspect needs a follow up, I think.

Panastur wrote:

And last, Far-East factories never exported unpainted production to be painted in Spain.... NEVER!!!! This is just ridiculous.

From: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t4427-the-poch-pbp-guide-discussion-thread#72643

Dr Dengar wrote:

Just keep in mind it is still a working theory based upon what I read in discussions mixed with some of my own ideas. Like with every theory various aspects of it it still need to be verified by sound evidence. Please challenge this theory, so it can be improved.

So let's discuss this further in the POCH/PBP thread.
In the end we all are interested in a valid theory.

Hi Marco,

You are really doing a hard job with the PBP section and i only can support your work and respect it as it's made with love and passion. But again, i am not a loose figure collector. It doesn't attract me that much. It's only curriousity for me.
Also, as far as i spoken with involved persons, all these theories you developped with archived CLASSES, is pure speculation and, to my eyes, a total nonsense.

No ofence Marco, i know you are trying to do as best as possible but speaking about imported un-assembled/un-painted pieces or un-assembled/painted pieces from the Far-East to be re-assembled or painted in Spain is totally wrong. It's simply an economical question. It's not like importing space-ship parts from a near country to another to be assembled and packaged as it occured between France and U.K.

I think all this COO problem is comming from wrong ideas we have on the matter and the fact that we have dificulties to accept that nothing is simply white or black;

- Example 1 : In a line of production, a Plastic Injection Press must cast several pieces in one cycle process to be cost-effective...

From the beginning we use to be educated with "prototype" material that doesn't reflect the mass production reality. The majority of people believes that molds are tooled with a single action-figure negative. This is because all the molds we saw are "In-house" prototype molds made to cast single example. In the reality of a mass production, these mold measure a good foot square and they are tooled to cast between 8 to 12 plastic parts in one injection cycle. You can not ask a press to mold only a Lobot head at a time...it's not cost-effective.

What does it means for us???? It means that pieces are molded in trees, duplicating a same piece several times in one injection process.
When a COO is altered, it's hand made and done on each of the six right or left legs that compose the mold that cast these legs. That means that you can have six different COO placements in the same mold... and possibly six differents alterations.

- Example 2 : production don't follows a timeline and it doesn't depend from a card variation.

Here again, a majority is convinced that a card change means a action-figure change. You can only "guess" or estimate when a figure appears on a certain card but it doesn't means it wasn't already available on a previous card... or at least his head, legs and arms.

Production scale is decided a on sale prevision with a margin. Let's says that 1000 Snaggletoooth are produced for its first release on SW card. The demand is high and the figure sold well. Another batch of 1000 figures is ordered again but this time the demand lowered and only 600 Snaggletooth are blistered. The other 300 still loose but assembled and the remaining 100 still unassembled and stored till new decision.
With the release of the ESB and a new line of action-figures, they decide to re-edit the Snaggletooth figure on the new ESB card and use 250 of the 300 already assembled figure and order a new production batch of 500 figures as prevision. From this new production, only 300 Snaggletooth ares packaged, 100 still un-packaged and mixed with the remaining 50 assembled figures, and the other remaining 100 still un-assembled and stored with the first batch of un-assembled figure's parts... and go on, and go on... finishing in a mix of figures and parts that doesn't reflect a card change but a production demand and stock availability. That means that you can find a first batch production figure on the last card produced, ...or legs and arms from a first batch assembled with a new production of chest/torso and head.

Dr Dengar wrote:

Just keep in mind it is still a working theory based upon what I read in discussions mixed with some of my own ideas. Like with every theory various aspects of it it still need to be verified by sound evidence. Please challenge this theory, so it can be improved.

That's the danger of theorizing an idea when you don't have tangible evidence to found it. You can't base and feed your own appraisal on someone else theorized comments... It only ends in guess and nonsense. The danger is, at the end, people tends to take it as a matter of fact even if no real proofs or evidences are brought.

It's really a plague today to find this kind of theory methodology in recent SW printed publication and see how an initial idea punctuated with words like "probably", "seems" or "supposedly" ends as an universal and holy fact!!!! Have to see it to believe it!!!!

I really can't bring pure info on COO matter but i can open new point of views that can help you see further.

M2C

JC

Hey JC,

Thank you very much for your comments. Much appreciated and big + earned. 
I moved it to here to prevent derailing the cardback thread.

You brought some good info, and I am looking how we can adapt the theory based upon this.
Maybe we can do this togehther. Which elements of the theory make sense, which don't.

Let's start with the idea that PBP imported unpainted parts from the Far East. True there is no proof.

The fact that the same character can appear with different COOs, might be an indication that PBP did not produce these figures themselves. Why would PBP import different sets of steelmoulds (belonging to different COO families)?
Compare this to the Lili Ledy factory, which obtained only one set of steel moulds (belonging to one family) for most of their figures, resulting in one COO for most of their figures. Still Lili Ledy was able to produce a large volume of figures with one set of moulds (probably a larger volume than PBP produced in the early POCH era?). But maybe there is a good explaination for this....

Also the shift in used (harder) plastics in the late PBP era makes me wonder. I know this is no proof but again it might hint towards the fact there was no plastic injection done before. I admit this is not a strong point....

Cheers
Marco

Hi Marco,

Dr Dengar wrote:

Hey JC,

Thank you very much for your comments. Much appreciated and big + earned. 
I moved it to here to prevent derailing the cardback thread.

You brought some good info, and I am looking how we can adapt the theory based upon this.
Maybe we can do this togehther. Which elements of the theory make sense, which don't.

Let's start with the idea that PBP imported unpainted parts from the Far East. True there is no proof.

Well, let's think a second and ask you why will PBP import unfinished production and spend another half to apply they own paint scheme...??? It's too expensive for the company and it's way cheaper to import finished product ready to pack.

Dr Dengar wrote:

The fact that the same character can appear with different COOs, might be an indication that PBP did not produce these figures themselves. Why would PBP import different sets of steelmoulds (belonging to different COO families)?

First, it's a wrong generally granted idea that steel moulds are shipped from a factory to another....Totally wrong and useless. Each plastic injection press has its own fixing mechanism and in the majority of the cases, it would be impossible to adapt these molds to the local used injection press. There's undred different existing models... Put appart the weight of a complete industrial mold.

It's now a couple of years that i was speaking with Chis Ward, tooling manager for Palitoy and Tonka Toys during the 80'. The company recieved a sample or "First shot" toy with material and paint specifications, then the factoriy made their own molds from this un-marked "First Shot" prototype. It was done with a 3D pantograph from the original sculpt or "First-Shot" to the stell block.

Regarding PBP production; it's clear and confirmed that PBP sub-contracted part of its production to other national toy companies. One of them being "FAMOSA", a famous spanish doll company that produced action-figures for PBP.

Dr Dengar wrote:

Compare this to the Lili Ledy factory, which obtained only one set of steel moulds (belonging to one family) for most of their figures, resulting in one COO for most of their figures. Still Lili Ledy was able to produce a large volume of figures with one set of moulds (probably a larger volume than PBP produced in the early POCH era?). But maybe there is a good explaination for this....

I am not sure LiliLedy's production volume was higher than PBP one... I really doubt it. From 1983, the spanish PBP company was designed by Generel Mills to be the main toy provider in Europe because its task force was way cheaper than any other european country. General Mills invested almost $500 millions of dollars in the spanish factory of Hostalric. G.M goal was to slowly withdraw from making the toys in the Far-East and decrease shipping cost. In the American continent, production was centralised in Mexico, in the new factory plant of Tijuana. Lili Ledy production was very limited and locally destined even if part of the production found its way in the international market.

Dr Dengar wrote:

Also the shift in used (harder) plastics in the late PBP era makes me wonder. I know this is no proof but again it might hint towards the fact there was no plastic injection done before. I admit this is not a strong point....

Production was high in the late PBP era and most of the production ended in France, UK and Germany... But there's no doubt that PBP also imported stock figures through the UK Palitoy company...

Hope that helps,

JC

This is a very nice debate...

Panastur wrote:

First, it's a wrong generally granted idea that steel moulds are shipped from a factory to another....Totally wrong and useless. Each plastic injection press has its own fixing mechanism and in the majority of the cases, it would be impossible to adapt these molds to the local used injection press. There's hundred different existing models... Put appart the weight of a complete industrial mold.

Whilst I don't disagree, i'd like to add that I previously worked for a manufacturing firm that sub-contracted a lot of injection moulding out. Tooling costs would either be paid up front or amortised over a product run. The end result was alway the same, that the tooling belonged to the customer. During cost reduction excerises it was common pratice to ship the tooling to another sub-contactor where they would if needed modify the tooling.

Now ok, this is my personnel experience with injection mouldings, but I don't believe the industry has changed.

There are some very good examples of "travelling" COO families, take the luke farmboy...

HONG KONG -> CHINA -> FRANCE/MACUA? (Meccano) ->Brazil (Glasslite)

First you have these to interviews taken from Lili Ledy Staff which Ozio posted in one of his special reports:

Alejandro Becerra, LL Quality Control Director (1981 to 1985)
'The 10 figures from the ESB LL line where fully produced in Mexico, molds where imported from kenner's factories on Asia'

Celia Flores Jimenez, LL Color line Supervisor (1966-1985)
'Nothing came from outside, we manufactured absolutely all, clothes, accesories, guns.

Hi

I have a potential PBP Han Solo, Chewbacca and Ree-Yees, but i need advice on identifying them. I have just been going off the TIG COO Guide.








Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I didnt want to get involved in this thread again but since we are talking about pre-production now it has piqued my interest. This is just my opinion and I dont wish this to escalate into an arguement.

JC its good to see you contributing your knowledge to this thread. Some very interesting information indeed and I always enjoy discussing the pre production side of Star Wars. You are a very experienced collector and you have a great deal of knowledge of the pre production process although I have to say I respectfully disagree with a few things.

I dont believe Spains production was larger than Lili Ledy. It was smaller in comparison and this is evident from the scarcity of PBP and POCH figures in comparison to Lili Ledy. Also Spain had to supplement their production with imported figures from Asia factories which is evident from the large amount of the figures on PBP cards that are not PBP figures.

And if Spain did not have the capacity to make sufficient figures for the Spanish market during the PBP era, combined with the issue of poor quality production, I find it highly unlikely that they had the capability to produce all their figures during the earlier POCH era. Although I agree that it makes little sense for figures to be made in Asia and assembled / painted in Spain. I think more likely all POCH figures were made in Asia. This explains identical mold details to figures widely available in the US and the mixed parts that POCH figures have.

Regardless of weight and cost, molds were certainly shipped overseas. In fact the initial molds were made Stateside and shipped overseas to Asia. I know this because I have pieces in my collection made by the mold makers Stateside before the mold was shipped to Asia. i.e. Bench shots. So I dont see why molds wouldnt be shipped to Mexico or Spain for that matter. Whilst I dont tend to pay much attention to very small discrepencies in COO and copyright markings I think it is evident from identical mold details and COO families with changed/alterated COO markings (No COO raised bars, No COO scar etc) that the same molds were used in different countries and were therefore shipped overseas at some point.

Also I have never heard of molds being made from first shots or even sculpts. It is my understanding that the 3D pantograph would create the steel mold from the hardcopy. If the steel molds had been made directly from first shots the figures would be notably smaller and with less detail. Companies like Palitoy would generally only receive hardcopies, protomolds etc for the purpose of photography and marketing.

I'm sure there will be disagreeing opinions to what I have written. I just hope they can be worded politely. I have little respect for rudeness regardless of someones level of experience or knowledge. I put it down to just language and misenterpretation but suggesting someones opinions are "totally wrong and useless" is a poor way to enter into a conversation. So please even if you disagree, lets keep it polite

walkie wrote:

This is a very nice debate...

Panastur wrote:

First, it's a wrong generally granted idea that steel moulds are shipped from a factory to another....Totally wrong and useless. Each plastic injection press has its own fixing mechanism and in the majority of the cases, it would be impossible to adapt these molds to the local used injection press. There's hundred different existing models... Put appart the weight of a complete industrial mold.

Whilst I don't disagree, i'd like to add that I previously worked for a manufacturing firm that sub-contracted a lot of injection moulding out. Tooling costs would either be paid up front or amortised over a product run. The end result was alway the same, that the tooling belonged to the customer. During cost reduction excerises it was common pratice to ship the tooling to another sub-contactor where they would if needed modify the tooling.

Now ok, this is my personnel experience with injection mouldings, but I don't believe the industry has changed.

There are some very good examples of "travelling" COO families, take the luke farmboy...

HONG KONG -> CHINA -> FRANCE/MACUA? (Meccano) ->Brazil (Glasslite)

Hi Walkie,

I agree that many small manufacturer sub-contract their tooling, including molds manufacture because they don't have the logistal means to make it themselves. In the case of the size of a company like Palitoy or PBP, they had their own workshop and maintenance department.
Shipping the tooling is always regional or national limited.

Meccano never made action figure. Macao(Macau) action figures were provided by the Palitoy department in Hong-Kong charged to control the production in the Far-East area, including Taiwan.

Glasslite is a very late production, 87-89 and, in this case, it's probable they got the tooling from another souce. In this case, it's just a thought... All the rest i am saying is based on interviews with involved people that worked in these toy factories/companies. I didn't guess anything...

JC

Here is a picture of a steel mold (half-part) of an "Airfix" model kit tree used in the french factory of Calais in 1980.

It's just to make you an idea of the size of a steel mold and the need of a crane to move it.... And this is just the 1/2 part for one tree of pieces!!!

JC