IG-88



IG-88: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



IG-88: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



IG-88: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).




CONCLUSION FOR IG-88: The POCH and PBP IG-88 figures do NOT share the same COO family (look at the small and big © !) and thus were derived from different steel moulds.


INTERIM SCORE: Is it possible that POCH and PBP figures were derived from the same set of steel moulds?

YES 1/4
NO  3/4

Lando Calrissian



Lando Calrissian: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Lando Calrissian: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Lando Calrissian: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Lando Calrissian: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).




CONCLUSION FOR LANDO: The POCH and PBP Lando figures do NOT share the same COO family and thus were derived from different steel moulds.


INTERIM SCORE: Is it possible that POCH and PBP figures were derived from the same set of steel moulds?

YES 1/5
NO  4/5

Luke Bespin



Luke Bespin: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Luke Bespin: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Luke Bespin: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



CONCLUSION FOR LUKE BESPIN: The POCH and PBP Luke Bespin figures do NOT share the same COO family and thus were derived from different steel moulds.


INTERIM SCORE: Is it possible that POCH and PBP figures were derived from the same set of steel moulds?

YES 1/6
NO  5/6

LUKE X-WING PILOT



Luke X-Wing Pilot: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Luke X-Wing Pilot: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Luke X-Wing Pilot: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).




CONCLUSION FOR LUKE X-WING PILOT: The POCH and PBP Luke X-Wing Pilot figures do NOT share the same COO family (look at the font used for the "7" in "1978"!) and thus were derived from different steel moulds.

BTW: I was not sure about this conclusion. Luckily An has hawk eyes, and she helped me finding some additional mould differences between the two figures, for instance in the positions of some of the wrinkles on the trousers.



INTERIM SCORE: Is it possible that POCH and PBP figures were derived from the same set of steel moulds?

YES 1/7
NO  6/7

REBEL SOLDIER



Rebel Soldier: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Rebel Soldier: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Rebel Soldier: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).




CONCLUSION FOR REBEL SOLDIER: The POCH and PBP Rebel Soldier figures do NOT share the same COO family and thus were derived from different steel moulds.



INTERIM SCORE: Is it possible that POCH and PBP figures were derived from the same set of steel moulds?

YES 1/8
NO  7/8

Wow, keep em coming marco!

Dr Dengar wrote:

I was typing this during the day, in between meetings. I had no time to catch up with the new posts of JC and Oli (great to see you chimed in BTW!). So maybe I will repeat things which already have been addressed. Sure you won’t mind then.

From JC’s previous post I understood that the machines for plastic injection probably harbored a number of steel moulds to produce the figures.  That makes sense as it would increase production capacity, in terms of produced figures per week.
I think it is safe to assume that the moulds in one factory, were copies of each other, in other words belonged to the same mould family. For instance in case of Leia Hoth, all moulds in a certain factory had  either the rough or a smooth emblem. In case of IG-88, a factory had either the moulds with hollow or solid eyes. The question how these mould differences arose in the first place, is an interesting one, which I like to see answered one day (different steel moulds from different hard copies?), but let’s  do so in a preproduction thread (who likes to start?).  

I think it is also safe to assume that the steel mould copies on one production plant received the same type of COO by using local tools. So that means that all steel mould copies within a factory for instance got a three line COO, a two line COO, or a filled in COO (in case the production facility changed). The differences between the individual COOs on these mould copies were very subtle. So e.g. differences between the alignment of compared to 1980 were common (the hardcore COO hunters know all about them). But you would not expect to see a two line HK COO next to a three line HK COO mould in the same factory.


PLASTIC INJECTION OF EARLY PBP (“POCH”) ’FIGURES: IN SPAIN OR IN ASIA?

Ok, now back to PBP/POCH discussion. Many figures from the early era (“POCH”) have been found with two different HK COOs, from two different mould families.  How can this be explained?

1) In case PBP did plastic injection of these figures, it would mean that they got steel moulds from at least two different factories……
Possible, but not what we have seen in other factories, for instance Lili Ledy, where most figures were derived from just one set of mould copies.

2) Or maybe this can all be explained assuming  that many early PBP (POCH) figures are mixed up figures, made up from PBP produced parts (from COO family A) and imported parts (from a different COO family).  Looking at different paint schemes (POCH and Kenner) appearing combined in one figure, indeed there seems to be hybrid/mixed up figures.

But why PBP needed to import parts from Asia in the first place?  
Was demand exceeding production that fast?  But that seems stange, assuming PBP did have their own fully operational injection station......
...unless there was no such station at that time....


I frankly admit here, I don’t have any proof that the early POCH figures were plastic injected in Asia instead of Spain. Based upon the above I like to think it was this way.
The other way around: Do we have any proof that the figures were plastic injected in Spain? I would welcome any evidence in that direction, and would give a shit having to change my view then,  that’s all part of having an open debate.


Proof can maybe come from a former PBP executive, QC manager,….

Alternatively we could dig a bit deeper into the used steel moulds, or better the COO families which they represent.
TO BE TESTED: IF PBP produced figures in the early period (POCH), it would be logical that they used the exact same steel moulds in the later era (PBP). Just the same mould but then with the COO removed. No way would they import new steel moulds, especially considering the weight of these heavy things.

So, what seems a good way to test this?
Can we just compare figures from the two eras, POCH vs PBP, and check whether they belong to the same mould family, maybe even for small co-occurring mould defects.  
In case POCH and PBP consequently belong to the same family, it would strengthen the case that PBP did plastic injection from the early start.  
The more often you see that POCH and PBP belong to different families, it hints towards different production facilities, i.e. POCH in Asia, PBP in Spain.

Which figures then?
Just to name a few, which have both POCH as PBP releases. Edit: Off course we have to look at the 'pure' POCH figures here, not the hybridss to get a good comparisson.
- Rebel Commander
- Rebel Soldier
- Bossk
- Chewbacca
- Han Solo
- Luke Bespin (Ground control to major Kahn)



PAINTING EARLY PBP (“POCH”) ’FIGURES: IN SPAIN OR IN ASIA?

With respect to the unique paint apps of early PBP figures. It could be that this was applied in factories in the Far East. But then it must have been done on a Monday after the long weekend before, as the quality is poor compared to Kenner standards. And why using unique colors not seen in other figures?
This makes me think the figures were painted in Spain.


Ok I hope I haven't lost you while reading.

Open for discussion.  

Cheers
Marco

If you like just read what is being highlighted in green.

This afternoon I took side by side pictures of a few figures which were produced by PBP in both the POCH era and the later PBP era. Just to answer this simple question: Is it possible that POCH and PBP figures were derived from the same set of steel moulds?

Sofar 8 figures have been researched, and at least 7 out of 8 (87,5%) were derived from DIFFERENT steel moulds when comparing POCH and PBP.

I admit, still 10 more figures need to be examined. I will do that another time, or maybe others would like to do so.
We are talking about: AT-AT-Driver, Boba Fett, Chewbacca, Darth Vader, Han Hoth, Imperial Commander, Luke Farmboy, Rebel Commander, Snowtrooper, and Stormtrooper.


Interim Conclusion: Most PBP figures were made from different steel moulds compared to the POCH figures.

The One Million Dollar Question:  
Why would PBP spend resources on new steel moulds, in case the factory already possessed moulds for most of their ESB figures?

Let's discuss..... 

Very interesting research Marco! 
Hopefully others will contribute, so that you have a larger data set to confirm or dismiss your initial findings.

As I understand it, POCH figures are pretty rare & only found in Spain. PBP figures are much more abundant and can be found in Spain as well as other parts of Europe e.g. the UK?

The evidence would suggest that (as previously discussed) during the PBP era, the Spanish factory used their own moulds for producing figures for the domestic market & other parts of Europe. During the earlier POCH era the figures were imported?

Very nicely presented Marco, and a logical conclusion for the million dollar question.

Hi,
I would like to add something that it seems it is not important but in my opinion it does.

During the early years of the '80 it was very difficult and expensive -you had high rates on the taxes for it- to import any kind of goods to Spain.

I haven't any proof but I don't find stupid to say that poch could import the figures dismantled to pay lower taxes and then to paint and assemble them here. Adding some manufacturing work locally they could say that it was made in Spain to the government and pay lower taxes. A lot of companies did that, in fact, that was the government goal to reduce the unemployment rates.

Cheers

ackbar100 wrote:

Hi,
I would like to add something that it seems it is not important but in my opinion it does.

During the early years of the '80 it was very difficult and expensive -you had high rates on the taxes for it- to import any kind of goods to Spain.

I haven't any proof but I don't find stupid to say that poch could import the figures dismantled to pay lower taxes and then to paint and assemble them here. Adding some manufacturing work locally they could say that it was made in Spain to the government and pay lower taxes. A lot of companies did that, in fact, that was the government goal to reduce the unemployment rates.

Cheers

Thanks for pointing this out,i have been thinking the same. In the world of international trade and shipping things don't always have to make sence to be profitable.

Dr Dengar wrote:

Lando Calrissian



Lando Calrissian: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Lando Calrissian: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Lando Calrissian: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



Lando Calrissian: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).




CONCLUSION FOR LANDO: The POCH and PBP Lando figures do NOT share the same COO family and thus were derived from different steel moulds.


INTERIM SCORE: Is it possible that POCH and PBP figures were derived from the same set of steel moulds?

YES 1/5
NO  4/5

Sorry to say Marco but PBP made a Lando Bespin in the ESB(POCH) with 2Lines COO, from which they could have modified

javiswspain wrote:

Sorry to say Marco but PBP made a Lando Bespin in the ESB(POCH) with 2Lines COO, from which they could have modified

Hey Javi,

Thanks for chiming in, my friend.

No need for sorry, this is a discussion remember.  Statements just need to be challenged to make progression.

So there is a Lando Bespin in the ESB era with a 2-lines COO.

How does this figure look like? Pics?

Cheers

Hey,
The Poch lando with 2L COO looks like a Poch Lando with 2L COO
Jokes aside, i have no time Right Now for taking picts of everything (you know why)but i Just want To add that i already have found the origin of nearly or all of the PBP(rotj) variants in the Pbp (esb) early era....

Hey Javi,

So there is a HK 2 line COO Lando which was released on PBP ESB cards (37, 41, or 45?) and which can be regarded the ancestor of the later scarred out PBP Lando?

So in that case this ancestor and PBP Lando figure are expected to come from the same steel mould.

But the questions still remains why the POCH Black Lando has been derived from a different steel mould as both the other two Landos (the HK two line COO ancestor and PBP scarred out version)

Correct?

WOW, i just wanted to say that everyone is doing an outstanding job with this thread.
Marco and others, thanks for putting this together.
I love the cardback art.

Thanks for your comments guys, much appreciated as always.

Let’s start with the central question.
Q: Were the early POCH figures as seen on the 41-backs, produced in Spain by PBP using plastic injection? (or were these figures produced in Asian factories and then imported to Spain?)


Difficult question to answer, you say?

Well maybe not that difficult, as the answer might actually be there just in front of you when closely examining a 41-back in more detail.
You see then that the 41-back is in fact a puzzle composed of three pieces which all together constitute the three keys for answering the main question.

PBP ESB 37/41 back.

Source: starwarsspanishstuff.info

OK before I loose you, let’s first step aside from the 41-back and do a fast forward from the early POCH era to the golden PBP age, the time of the PBP 65-backs. A period during which PBP produced many figures for Spain and many other European countries, even some for the US. Figures which are characterised by unique paint schemes, hard plastic bodies, and no COOs, and which had a totally different appearance compared to the figures from the previous POCH era.

Now let’s take a closer look at all 37 characters on the 41-back and see how they were released on the PBP 65-backs later on?

PBP 65 back

Source: starwarsspanishstuff.info

By doing so the 37 figures on the 41-back fall into three different categories, let's call them A, B, and C.


GROUP A:  Characters which were first released on 41-backs and later also on PBP 65-backs: Spanish production on 65-backs.


1. AT-AT-Driver
2. Boba Fett
3. Bossk
4. Chewbacca
5. Darth Vader
6. Dengar
7. Han Solo
8. Han Solo Hoth Outfit
9. IG-88
10. Imperial Commander
11. Lando Calrissian
12. Luke Skywalker
13. Luke Skywalker Bespin Outfit
14. Luke X-Wing
15. Rebel Soldier
16. Rebel Commander
17. Snowtrooper
18. Stormtrooper


Note: The Group A figures which were released on PBP 65-backs were all plastic injected, painted and welded by PBP in Spain. Interestingly it seems that for at least the majority of these figures different steel moulds were used compared to their counterparts figures from the 41-backs (early POCH era). See the comparisson pics posted a few days earlier.



GROUP B: Characters which were first released on 41-backs and later also on PBP 65-backs: Mexican production on 65-backs.

19. Ben Kenobi
20. C-3PO
21. R2-D2
22. Yoda
Luke Bespin

Note: The Group B figures which were released on PBP 65-backs were all imported Lili Ledy figures. At least they look the same, have the same accessories, the same COO as Ledy figures, so that makes them 99% Lili Ledy for me: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.  
The plastic used for these Ledy figures differs from the typical PBP plastic (look, feel, and smell), letting me believe these figures were Mexican produced and imported to Spain instead of the other way around (Spain produced and exported to Mexico). Besides Mexican trade laws did not allow the import of foreign produced toys at that time.
BTW: Luke Bespin is the only figure falling in two different groups (A+B), but that has no influence on the point I want to make a bit further.


GROUP C: Characters which were first released on 41-backs but NEVER on PBP 65-backs

23. 2-1B
24. Bespin Guard White
25. Death Star Droid
26. FX-7
27. Han Solo Bespin
28. Jawa
29. Leia Bespin
30. Leia Hoth
31. Leia Organa
32. Lobot
33. Powerdroid
34. R5-D4
35. Star Destroyer Commander
36. Tusken Raider
37. Ugnaught


Note: I checked at http://www.starwarsspanishstuff.info/juguetes
There appear to be no pictures of PBP 65-backs for any of the Group C characters. That let me believe these characters were never released on these cardbacks. But hey, I am just a loose variant geek, so what do I know about MOCs?
So hopefully Spanish MOC collectors can chime in to confirm/object the lack of PBP 65-backs for the Group C characters.


-------------------------------

So to summarize the three Groups:

> Group A characters - first relased on poch cards, then on pbp 65-backs, but different steel moulds were used for (most of) the pbp releases
> Group B characters - first relased on poch cards, then on pbp 65-backs, but Ledy figures were packaged on the pbp cards.
> Group C characters - first relased on poch cards, but never on pbp 65-backs


OK, back to the discussion. What was the central question again? Almost forgot, oh yeah, I remember now:
Q: Were the early POCH figures as seen on the 41-backs, produced in Spain by PBP using plastic injection?


Based upon the three Groups (A,B,C) not one, not two, but three other questions can be asked to counter the central question:  
• GROUP A FIGURES: Why would PBP often invest in other steel moulds to produce Group A figures on 65-backs instead of using the already available steel moulds which were used before for producing the early POCH figures (41-backs)?
• GROUP B FIGURES: Why would PBP import Group B figures from Mexico to put on 65-backs, instead of producing these themselves using the already available steel moulds which were used before for producing the early POCH figures (41-backs)?
• GROUP C FIGURES: Why did PBP not produce the Group C characters and put them on 65-backs using the already available steel moulds which were used before for producing the early POCH figures (41-backs)?


Now let's assume that PBP indeed had their own set of steel moulds to perform their own injection moulding for the early POCH figures which were released on the 41 backs.

...that would mean that more than 30 steel moulds which were used for the POCH figures, were not used anymore for producing figures on the PBP 65-backs....

...making it tough to answer these three questions..... 


....That is unless you assume something else, and suddenly all seems very clear. (move your mouse and select the area below to see my point)


PBP IMPORTED (UN)PAINTED PARTS FROM ASIAN FACTORIES IN THE EARLY POCH PERIOD AND DID NOT HAVE THEIR OWN STEEL MOULDS AT THAT TIME TO PRODUCE THEIR OWN FIGURES USING PLASTIC INJECTION.


OK, let’s discuss this further.

For your information:

Last week, I received two mails from Spanish collectors, with basically the same messsage:

Indeed, none of the GROUP C characters are known to have been released on PBP 65-backs.

This isn't really my area, but I believe that your Snaggletooth was produced by PBP, and was widely available across Europe, so it wasn't exclusive to Spain. I've had a few full & partial scar figures pass through my hands which were from UK collections.

If you're looking to get confirmation as to whether your other figures are Poch, others should be able to advise you. Where did the figures come from? You may be requested to add further pics. to aid identification.

ok great stuff so the half scar red snag has been found on palitoy meccano or pbp moc so can not be pinned to it`s own card back,. thanks for info, as for were my figures are from well i live in uk and first bought a big collection of loose and moc`s about 6 years ago all moc`s were damaged so i opened them to display then i started on ebay and was getting figures from all over the world and from a well none seller from spain we all no his name . i never marked my figures down as variants so they all got messed up and i got a bit lost on my focus and coo`s, my focus now is just loose yoda`s and have traded a lot of my figures from good friends on fb again from all over the world and now need a little help so here i am,.