Jason - The main site does have that , I'd happily add it to the App. Again, there was no malice here

DarthBerizing wrote:

For the love of mike.....................

Okay, first off all of the pics are on TIG. Every photo is cropped tight so I could build the app in a format that worked. That's it, no dark super secret back door shenanigans. As for this huge profit making machine, dream on. Forget that the app took 200hrs to build (so no "true" cost), I won't even make enough money to cover the expenses for TIG for a year subscription. I'm not taking this money and rolling around in cash.

It's an App, that uses pics from my site, that are condensed.

Wolff - I'll make it easy. If you want to submit pics with your watermark right across the weapons i'll put those up in place. Just match the overall sizing. I have no issue with it at all. I'd rather distance myself from you because plenty of people remember you painted rare figures to rip off fellow collectors, but if it means that much to you I really don't care. I've never removed your watermark from the sites photos have I ? No, because I gave credit where it was due.

jeez............................

John, I knew Jay before he startted this site and i know his intention was to have a accessible free resource on the internet to help people identifying there weapons, this is exactly the reason why so many people contributed pictures to this site. This was a site build by collectors for collectors...

You say developing the app took 200+ hours, how many hours do you think Wolff spent taking all those pictures, cropping, watermarking and uploading them?
Still even if he contributed those to the site, he contributed those under totally different conditions then what they are beeing used for now... there is a difference between donating pictures to a free resource to help collectors or having someone selling your work to make profit out of it... I did not donate many pictures as most where allready covered by Wolff, but i know if those where my pictures i would not be happy either. I don't care if you use my 5 pictures or so i donated, but knowing the app is 90% build with Wolff pictures...
Does he get 50% of the sales you make on the app? I think that's also part of giving credit where credit is due.

Also you say you sell the app to keep the site running, i thought the members did, i know people contribute here to cover the annual cost for hosting the website, i know i did a couple of times.

Thanks for bringing up Wolff bad history about peinting up those tri logo dark brown soldiers, i had a good relation with Wolff at that time and i was really disappointed aswell in him as a person, and told him straight away what i thought about that scam. I think i made myself clear to him, even so that he was to scared to meet up with me at CE2 a few years later.

I know you bought this site, but i think you are person who can make money from dirt aswell, this is not an insult but i mean your really thinking business minded on your moves. But this bothers me on the other end aswell. Now making money on others people work, you have a TIG store to make some money and cover for your site, and whilst typing this, it reminds me of your raffles, which startted in a way, when your stuff did not sell for your minimum asking price, you raffled them off so you could make the money you wanted for them in another way.

Not nice from me bringing that topic back up, the only reason i did this, is because i feel you did not had to bring Wolff's repainting job back up either, because it has nothing to do with the topic on the pictures from Wolff beeing used in the app without even asking permission.

I havent been on the TIG forum for a long time John, but i think your in the wrong here, you could at least discussed this first with the owners of the pictures and asked for their permission.
I guess this would had saved all the drama your get now.

I know I have not posted on here all that much of late, and normally I avoid posting on this kind of thread.
OK John could of perhaps asked permission of the contributors of pics.  
The way I see it is the app is just an extension, or another way to access the knowledge base of TIG, of which you are happy that we can all use and see the photos online so whats the difference between this website and the app? I am assuming its the money to buy the thing? Because I cant see John making a shit load from it, it's not going to be the next flappy birds, its quite a specialist app with a smallish market and who's to say the cost of the app is not going to help cover website costs.

Wolff brought up his own history Dennis.

Ok sorry i missed that then James, but still unrelated to the discussion of the pictures.

I can see both sides of the story here.

In my eyes John is the owner of the main site he is doing a great work in order to reduce the scams  of other fellow collectors , and thats priceless in collecting and i would like to thanks John public for running this site, in where i feel like at home .

Of course  he can do what he want with it , as long as he have the agreement if there are other parts involved in his decisions.

If Wolff asked time ago for removing all his picts , i think he is on his rights for doing that no matter who is the owner, I think (but can be wrong)those picts were donated to a site not to a person,I believe.

I.e :I am doing a project myself in which many collectors friends of mine are involved.I asked permission about taking picts and using them for the book.THey gladly let me take picts of his pieces on theirs collection knowing that, of course , i would ask money for my book.They were all agreed on that ,knowing that theirs pieces will be used for the good of collectors community and documentation about PBP stuff BUT clearly declared the propriety in the credits.Even,If any of them ever asked me money, i will for sure reach and agreement with any of them ,however that wasn't the case because they are really friend of mine

Being said that, i have to say also that i asked for help John a while back for a side-project (which sadly is delayed)which involve the use of the picts of the repro stuff of the main site TIG. In return i would let the repro section of the project to John for doing it on his own and to promote The Imperial Gunnery as the reference  net site  about id repro stuff.To be quite honest the same could have happened to me because at that time , i didnt realized that the main picts of repro stuff even couldn't be of John....Thanks god the project was delayed...

Now ,I would for sure ask permision to the owners ,about the use of picts of repro stuff or -in a case of denial - i can spent some money in buying myself that crap for taking my own picts.

I am sure John can/should delete the picts of Wolff from the site if is this what Wolff want, and rebuilt the mine site if necessary just becouse i am sure that John have enough good contacts for getting those picts back from others sources.

John ,I can take picts and to give my permission for the use for free the watermarked picts or a mention on the APP -if you are not able to find elsewhere - the VHT weapons i may have, if this helps.

I only hope :
1 -Wolff have his rights protected by deleting his picts if he wants to .
2 -and the success of John´s APP with his own picts of his owns sources.

Peace

Javier

aussiejames wrote:

Wolff brought up his own history Dennis.

AJ...you know from the history here...if I hadn't..John would have:

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t7313-the-thing-with-the-pictures-opinions-please

DarthBerizing wrote:

Wolff - You've got some nerve dude. You must have a pretty short memory. The reason you will only remain a member is pretty well established. TIG (and I mean Chris B and Me) spent days putting out fires because of you. I had to stay on TIG, SWFUK, SWCC , and RS because you almost single handedly brought TIG to a halt and ruined what took years building. Don't make me cut and paste the topics.  I'm not going to rehash this any further, but remember that TIG was the only place that tried to help you. You're standing is a result of your actions.

As for the weapons, I actually do get it and for that I apologize. I do consider them fair game (and honestly it's just a weapon that anyone could take a photo of) but the courtesy of contact would be respectful.

It is just unnecessary....and very bad form!!!


I am BTW disspaointed to the limit from you AJ. I really thought you were a good guy! Just remember again who is fucked for that app:

ArtooDetour,
AussieJames,
Bedheadjulian,
BonsaiMatt,
Burnsy,
CantinaPatron,
Capetown,
Chris75,
DrDengar,
Frunkstar,
Flycasual,
GeneralKahn,
Iceworm,
Jaymassive619,
Jedi534,
Nico,
Olisuds,
Ozio,
Pattejan,
Plantainman,
Psybertech,
Rawlin,
Snaggletooth,
Spoons,
StarGeezer,
Thargoil,
Tim Day,
VintageStarwarsfan,
Walkie,
Wbobafett,
Warok


Peace

Wolff

PS: I fighted for years to get all those guys even mentioned!!!! Isn't that already sad enough
??? That should be something so "of course"......shame on TIG!!!

Personally I can see both sides of the argument.

I myself have pictures on TIG which I have given for the sake of the hobby, I have no interest in money and I don't really care if the pictures are used by others, this I expect when I upload any picture onto the internet. I don't water mark my images, they are credited to me on the main site in the couple of cases where they are present, I was asked by Paul if I wanted my name added, I simply said okay, more for my own ego than anything really
On the flip side, my total lack of caring as to what happens with my images is not shared by others who have supplied images. Many do feel strongly about there images being used, and this does have to be respected.

Wolff does feel strongly about this issue which has arisen on several occasions in the past and this does have to be respected.

I haven't really followed this App. as such because it's not ultimately something I would use, don't get me wrong, great idea, just not for me, mainly because using my phone drains me for even it's most primary functions

I appreciate totally the amount of effort put in by all parties here and don't believe for a second that any malice was intended or any real financial gain and hope this issue can be resolved respectfully.

John, Your personal attack on Wolff regarding the old "retouch" story with the DBRS Rebel Soldiers made me loose all respect for you. This was simply a total lack of class! It's bad enough, that you use other peoples pics for Financial gain for TIG without asking for their permission/approval - or offer to share the Money from the sales of the apps with the´se gentlemen. Mucht of of the pics in the app is Wolffs Work, as far as I can see... How much do you offer for instance Wolff out of the sales? Has Wolff ever asked for a Euro cent for any of his guides, which has cost him tons of time, which he could have spent with his Family instead?

Wolff has done so much good for this forum and hobby, but you're insisting om in hanging on to that old story instead. What Wolff did back them was of course very wrong, but he has done so much great things for the hobby since then. I assume, that Wolf for instance is forbidden to sell in here due to that incident, since I have never seen a Wolff FS thread in here? And I assume, that it's also why Wolff isn't part of any of the TIG teams in here, all though his Work certainly would justify that. Without Wolffs Work TIG wouldn't be the maybe greatest vintage sw ressource on the web.

I herby want to ask you politely to cancel my TIG membership/account! I simply cannot identify myself and my values with this forum, if this is the standard..

Ian_C wrote:

I know I am very rarely on here, and post even less, but most of you know me very well from RS.  I've been alerted to this situation and asked to comment.  Hopefully what I say here carries just a tiny amount of weight.

John, I get what you're saying that you bought a site with these pics on it, but this is dangerously close to the insane backlash Philip Wise got a couple of years ago when he declared any pics submitted to RS became the property of RS to do with as they please.  It was such a contentious issue, it was part of the catalyst for Joe Y leaving there for here.  What you're doing here is almost the same thing.  If someone submits photos and later asks for them to be removed, it shouldn't matter if ownership of the site had changed hands - ownership of those pics should still belong to the contributor.  Even watermarking them takes a back seat to a direct request to remove the pics.

Just my stance.  I can't force your hand at all, and while your intentions are good, the way it's going down is wrong as it stands right now.

Ian

I was leaving RS, because I wasn't happy with the environment there,and had personally deleted the pics in question on RS, THAT is why Wise banned me, once I was banned Wise put them back in place. My pics were in a limelight, which should remain my pics. Now if TIG decided to do something with pics that I donated for the Arco or Uzay articles(not sure if the Uzay article even got published here), as long as I got credit, I wouldn't care. BUT..... Since Wolff has repeatedly asked for his pics removal, it's really a grey issue. I personally think that if some division of the profits and credit for this guide is given to Wolff, it would be fair for everyone, and not rob the community of this potentially great mobile resource.

Cheers
Joe

Joseph_Y wrote:

Ian_C wrote:

I know I am very rarely on here, and post even less, but most of you know me very well from RS.  I've been alerted to this situation and asked to comment.  Hopefully what I say here carries just a tiny amount of weight.

John, I get what you're saying that you bought a site with these pics on it, but this is dangerously close to the insane backlash Philip Wise got a couple of years ago when he declared any pics submitted to RS became the property of RS to do with as they please.  It was such a contentious issue, it was part of the catalyst for Joe Y leaving there for here.  What you're doing here is almost the same thing.  If someone submits photos and later asks for them to be removed, it shouldn't matter if ownership of the site had changed hands - ownership of those pics should still belong to the contributor.  Even watermarking them takes a back seat to a direct request to remove the pics.

Just my stance.  I can't force your hand at all, and while your intentions are good, the way it's going down is wrong as it stands right now.

Ian

I was leaving RS, because I wasn't happy with the environment there,and had personally deleted the pics in question on RS, THAT is why Wise banned me, once I was banned Wise put them back in place. My pics were in a limelight, which should remain my pics. Now if TIG decided to do something with pics that I donated for the Arco or Uzay articles(not sure if the Uzay article even got published here), as long as I got credit, I wouldn't care. BUT..... Since Wolff has repeatedly asked for his pics removal, it's really a grey issue. I personally think that if some division of the profits and credit for this guide is given to Wolff, it would be fair for everyone, and not rob the community of this potentially great mobile resource.

Cheers
Joe

Joe - There is no profit. This will never turn a profit. I don't know why people are assuming that two sites, using a lot of bandwidth and suppressing advertising, has no cost associated with it.

Again, Im not talking about the forum pics. Those used in your threads are yours. But your Example on the Arco guide is a great choice. I simply wouldn't need to crop your photos so they'd be in full display. This wouldnt even be an issue.

Again, if Wolff wants to watermark the cropped pics he can. I have nothing to hide

I dont think people think you thought of this app as anything more than an extension of the site.but it was just the weapons guide.which i agree shouldnt be lost to the community.if you have issues with wolff.it might have been good for you both to talk it out and explain what you wanted to do with his pics.he might have said sure no problem and the app launch would have gone off with wolffs approval and backing.but with the stance your both taking just leaves you butting heads.as these are a really fantastic resource for everybody.it would be sad to see the pics removed.it is your app not wolffs and he shouldnt have to rewatermark everything.if you two could talk it out,you hopefully can come to a mutual agreement.i dont think wolffs after the tiny amount of money you might make.but i think you could settle this between you both.you both want the same thing after all.less scams for us collectors.which you are both sterling chaps for doing so.

Daren

DarthBerizing wrote:

Again, if Wolff wants to watermark the cropped pics he can. I have nothing to hide

Assuming would be happy for you to use his watermarked cropped pics, why would Wolff have to watermark them again and don't you watermark them again, since you blanked/cropped his watermark out and you want to use them for your app?

People try to tell you and help you to make you understand it's just not right, yet you keep hanging onto the "Its the site pictures and i can use the because i own the site" part. But can't bring up any respect for the people who spent their time providing those resources... even worse, slagging them off for old issues and repeating yourself.
I know our noses did not always point in the same direction, but i never had an issue with you as a person or collector.
I respect what you did for this site and how you kept it growing, but this just ain't right.

If you like, you can cancel my TIG membership/account aswel, because like Kenneth i also cannot identify myself and my values with this forum, if this is the standard..

Wolff your request to remove pictures has always been about the CoO guide? Which has been addressed many times.
"I am BTW disspaointed to the limit from you AJ." Long time friends don't always have to agree. What makes you think I'm no longer a good guy?
In an attempt to be respectful I have not said much because many things deserve to remain private.

For me, collecting is a hobby. The enemy is the 'repro guy' who devalues the experience. Anything that aids just one collector from being duped is a win IMO. I haven't contributed to anywhere near the extent that wolff has, Nor have I had any historic issues with site owners regarding the usage of images, so I couldn't possibly comment on his viewpoint. I think his circumstances may be unique, and best discussed between the relevant parties.

As it currently stands, I wouldn't have any problem supplying images to TIG as I do so with the aim of protecting the hobby against reproductions. I have no interest in financial gain.

aussiejames wrote:

Wolff your request to remove pictures has always been about the CoO guide? Which has been addressed many times.
"I am BTW disspaointed to the limit from you AJ."  Long time friends don't always have to agree.  What makes you think I'm no longer a good guy?
In an attempt to be respectful I have not said much because many things deserve to remain private.

No...it wasn't mainly about the COO pics...the pics that YOU....yeah...I know that....*shock*...."improved" with the TIG sign!
You know what I mean...don't you???

I BTW gave them to Jay to upload them on RS!!! I have proof for that!! I gave them to the community....I wanted him to upload them again on RS while I was hiding.....and he used my circumstances to upload them ONLY on TIG! These are STOLEN.....from the very first minute! AJ...YOU helped to STEEL them...YOU helped to MODIFY them!!!

TIG PIC:


MY ORIGINAL:



But it was not only about those pics! If you think so Jay and John lied to you!!!

Why are folk wanting to cancel their forum membership when the issue is about the website? A lot of bad blood seems to be rising to the surface.

As editor of imperialgunnery.com (the website) here are my thoughts,

First some clarification on the two sites:

imperialgunnery.com (the website) was created in 2009 by Jay Henderson who became the owner and editor. Wolff submitted many pics and info for the site to be used for the benefit of the whole community.

Jay created imerialgunneryforum (the forum) shortly after which was, and still is, a separate entity from imperialgunnery.com - the subject in hand.

Jay sold both sites to John in 2012.

I became editor of imperialgunnery.com in 2012 responsible for all content uploads. I also created a Contributors List as previously there wasn't one. As far as I'm aware there are no picture policies for the site and I've always taken it that pictures are given to be used for the benefit of the community to guard against scammers and help collectors ID authentic accessories. I don't see the mobile app as anything different - a tool to help the community. I don't believe any profits are being made from the app - the intention is to make an extension of the site. I don't have anything to do with the app, I just edit and write for the main site, but I've contributed many pics and info (as have dozens of other collectors) and I don't have issues with these being used for the benefit of the community.

I haven't seen the app but I believe there is an acknowledgment to the contributors on its welcome page.

I like this post which I quote below by Jedge, and possibly it's a good way to go forward:

jedge2000 wrote:

In the interests of not seeing even more division between our ranks over an issue that is NOT cut and dry... can I offer an alternative viewpoint?

The costs for the app aside for a moment, if we can all agree that the purpose of such an app, and the intent of Wolff and others who donated/gave/posted/hosted the web content are actually aligned:  that they were meant to help serious collectors  1.) improve their knowledge   2.) not get burned by scammers and repro artists ,  then we're halfway to finding a solution already.  

Why not create a credits page for the app - somewhere where contributing collectors can be honoured for their contributions to the app, and the hobby?

John's offer to replace the photos in question with other watermarked ones is great, but it sounds like a lot of work for the contributors and him as well.

Can we agree that permission and credit for contributions can and should be made now, today, and carry on helping the community?

I believe, that I clearly stated my reasons/argumented for why not wanting to be a member of this forum anymore with the current owner... But then Again it's not a loss that I leave, but it's a major loss that Wolff does for the future of this forum imo...

Did I attempt to continue the CoO community project ? YES. Takara R2 pics, you know I'm not smart enough to add emblems!! You did give the pictures to Jay to upload- why/if they did not get to RS is an issue for Jay? Anyone could have copy & pasted them to RS if they wanted. I have no idea why you think I stole them? The labels should/could have been removed instead a disclaimer was added, TIG didn't replace the guide because CoO version 2 was in progress- didn't happen. Then it started again with your V3 and your link was added.

Back to the issue at hand- this weapons app. I don't think this is a money raising venture. It's a tool to assist some of the community. I have liked the idea of advertising on the site to generate income to pay running costs, similar to RS. Are any members then entitled to a portion of that income because their contributions/pictures bring 'traffic'

End of the day I'm not sure why no concerns were raised when this app was being developed. John asked for public opinion & explained there would be a cost involved. In hindsight all that was needed was a request for permission ( even if it was not needed) to use all the pictures & confirmation the app is not for profit.

Moving forward what should happen? Replace all your pictures?

Aj....

I know that it was at least your idea to add the TIG symbold on top of every coo-pic of mine!

Fact is:

1. I send JayMassive the pics to upload them on RS...He was pretending to be my firend at that time!

2. Jay only uploaded them on TIG! (that is theft!)

3. You all (some of the team) then changed and tempered them! (That is illegal!)

4. You denied deleting them after I told you....several times (3x times)

5. Worst of all: I wanted at least my name added to the Coo guide! This was promised...three times! Never happend!!!

Shame on you TIG!!!

And there is no differnece between the ability to add coo pics or TIG emblems! I am not stupid AJ!

Forget about the Coo charts.....they were provided by many members! Buit with the wepaon pictures you are going to far!

It is not an accident that the watermarks are cut of! This is just a childish lie!!! WOW.....TIG really got worse....didnt see that one coming! So you all stick together? Then forget my support ever! Whole team on my list now! Shame....thought there could have been at least some good guys in it!

And dont tell me about mobney and hours! You are telling me John? Seriously??? Are you freaking nuts?? I have spend millions of hou5rs making pictures and guides for the community! I never asked somthing for that!

Shame Rob needed to come back to see all your shame!

AHAR!!

Wolff

DarthBerizing wrote:

For the love of mike.....................

Okay, first off all of the pics are on TIG. Every photo is cropped tight  so I could build the app in a format that worked. That's it, no dark  super secret back door shenanigans. As for this huge profit making  machine, dream on. Forget that the app took 200hrs to build (so no  "true" cost), I won't even make enough money to cover the expenses for  TIG for a year subscription. I'm not taking this money and rolling  around in cash.

It's an App, that uses pics from my site, that are condensed.

Wolff - I'll make it easy. If you want to submit pics with your  watermark right across the weapons i'll put those up in place. Just  match the overall sizing. I have no issue with it at all. I'd rather  distance myself from you because plenty of people remember you painted  rare figures to rip off fellow collectors, but if it means that much to  you I really don't care. I've never removed your watermark from the  sites photos have I ? No, because I gave credit where it was due.

jeez............................

DarthBerizing wrote:

As I said on TIG , these aren't the same thing at all.

Philip decided that any pics are his. Wolff knowingly donated the photo  to TIG. There was no ambiguity that he was giving the picture to TIG.  It's now TIG property. Any photo that is posted in forum is the users  and he/she can pull them down at any point.

In short, Wolff gave the photo. And again (as it bears repeating) every  photo was cropped down to size to fit into the small format.

Everyone, stop looking for a conspiracy, there isn't one

Again:




Cut off parts (please note the shadows ):



Originals:



Yupp...have to agree...these wre just cropped for the app format.....of course NOT to cut away watermarks.....no....how could I ever think of that??? DOOOOOhhhhhhh

My 2 cents:

TIG TEAM: You can sell all the SW/TIG apps that you want at the price you deem reasonable to whoever you want... I have no biff against that, business is business, regardless of the profit you may or may not turn.

The thing that bothers me is that if you wanted to use material created by someone else you should have worked with that person(s) and try to reach an agreement, any kind....

Please don't tell me that you truly believe the argument that "the pics are the site's" because Wolff and the other contributors were not employees or owners or partners of the site when they donated their work. This site was created to help each other and that is what Wolff's has been doing for years, asking nothing in return. I know that first hand.

Is that agreement still feasible? I am sure that you guys will do the right thing, I truly trust you will....

Fighting each other will not get us anywhere

Carlos Aguilera

Wolff - If you put the blasters close together you'll see part of your name is already gone. So thanks for proving my point that it would look crazy

Again - I'll give it away. So let me , man up

You never give something "away" John! You never did! You have no friends...you never give or share...you are always only looking for your own advantage!!!!!

If you give it away fro free...it will be full of TIG advertising (your site...your dollars) and such.....forget it!

Make a neutral one...for free...I check...and also ask all other contributors for their okay!!!

You big crybaby. It was all about money, but now that i'll give it away you find something to complain about.

You're pathetic