I really think people are over estimating the QC on these figures, honestly millions of these were pumped out, they were sold to kids, theres no way items would have not passed QC for some of the tiny things people are talking about here, it makes no sense at all, i really believe if it was near enough it was good enough for them.

panastur wrote:

panastur wrote:

Hi Guys,

Here is the result of a previous work i done on the matter.
I checked all my ESB MOC and loose ESB cardback(Palitoy, Parker and Clipper) and i think i found the way to descard, at least, one category of Toni's "Mock-Up".

[size=150]"Single Stem" bubbles on ESB 45 back cards[/size]

All my Palitoy, Parker and Clipper cards, that have or had a "Single Stem" bubble, have those bubble marked with a number from 01 to 015
For example :

"01" and "03" AT-AT Commander, Bespin Security Guard
"02" Cloud Car Pilot
"03" Leia Organa Bespin
"04" Han Solo Original
"012" Death Star Droid
"013" Tie Fighter Pilot
"015" C-3PO Removable Limbs

Again, none of my 50+ cardbacks(ESB45bk) with "Single Stem" Bubble has unmarket bubble. It's also the case with my 7 "single Stem" MOC's.

That strongly makes me suggest that all unmarked "Single Stem" bubbles are REPRO'S made by Toni.



Let me know what you think guys...

JC

'ironed' on upside down single stem bubble (03?)

AussieFortuna wrote:

I really think people are over estimating the QC on these figures, honestly millions of these were pumped out, they were sold to kids, theres no way items would have not passed QC for some of the tiny things people are talking about here, it makes no sense at all, i really believe if it was near enough it was good enough for them.

That's certainly true for (Palitoys) Action Force figures, you see no end of bizarre card-back, bubble & weapon combinations. Many of the last clearance stock figures were packaged in Star Wars blister bubbles on the wrong cards & no accessories what-so-ever.  

Even during the lines prime there were many mix ups & packaging errors, with figures receiving extra, wrong or no accessories at all, quality control seems almost non existent by the end.

I remember speaking to chap who's wife had worked for Palitoy packaging Star Wars figures back in the 80's, she'd told him it that was a mind numbingly repetitive & monotonous job.
You can just imaging how many mistakes could of been without being spotted...I mean if your on a fast moving assembly line under pressure to work quickly, & only being paid piece work you're hardly going to stop everything because a miniscule accessory or paint app's missing from 1 of a hundred items.

Sound research and well explained, JC!   

DarthBerizing wrote:

I think the jury has made up it's mind. Still nothing concrete though. I've got three Toy Toni cards, none exhibit the off colors, blobs of ink, or crescent opening mid bubble. Two have english text, one doesn't. I guess I'm saying that everytime someone seems to get close to the "a-ha!" there is something that offsets it. My C3PO removable Limbs has no dots, or anything, and is a single stem bubble, just as a for instance. Doesn't mean it's real , just that there are so many variations it'll be almost impossible to create a "This is a real MOC" document. And it's a shame. I was waiting on the black-light theory too, if it meant something I'd go out and buy one.

I even tossed the idea of opening one up, to see how it looks when ripped off the MOC. See if it gave any guidance.

John, I've tried the blacklight on my Fett.  I didn't see anything.  I would be surprised if someone perpetrating such an act would not think to use media that doesn't emit flora.

That said, when I inspected the blister closer, I noticed some paint smear which made me very nervous.  It's red and it's located on the top part of the front facing blister.  It clearly came from the front part of Fett's helmet.  Of all the Fetts I own, I have never seen such a thing occur on an MOC, which led me to think it was repainted.  Then there is red overspray underneath the chin. Apart from these issue, the die cut, especially the rounding corners, looks too crude for my liking.

Here's a link to the video but it's hard to see the residue from the paint smear:

First post on how spotting some of the originals!

Some German double stem 45 backs have a crescent flaw on the top of the blister seal. These are 100% real as the examples show below (found and used German cradbacks):

Comparison original factory sealed Boba Fett and his loose cardback counterpart:




More loose cardbacks (German 45 backs):



The pictures are taken from Mike_Skywalker and Wolfgang Schlögel. (Fett copyright: MrPalitoy)

Thanks guys....I hope I am free to show them here!


Wolff

I watched the Palitoy vid over and over again! Suddenly I had an idea today!

I seem to have found out sth. very interesting!


Mirco has an album full with scanned German 45 backs:
https://s487.photobucket.com/user/mike-skywalker/library/ESB%20German%2045%20Cardbacks?sort=6&page=1

I also used Wolfgangs site for reference:
http://www.raumhafen.de/cgi-bin/showp.pl?pic=/galerie/starwars/sw/esb_45back_d&titel=German%20ESB%20Figures

I concentrated on the ripped of "only" cardbacks. The used ones with creases, stickers and unpacked!

So time to watch closely at the pictures:




You will notice following from the sealing process:


1. There is PINS holding the cardbacks in place!


2. There is "forms" for the blisters that can probably swapped and changed (single stem, double stem, different sizes etc.)


If you combine these two very important facts you can conclude the following:
The bubble all have the same axis (middle/centre) compared to the cards! That means the middle of the bubble always is in the same place regarding the cardbacks!

Toni did different....he usually middled the bubbles (at least a bid...not really accurate) to the colored shaped form the figure is placed on.

What do I have to proof this:

Going through all cardbacks from Mirco and Wolfgang, ALL have the same in comon: The middle/centre axis is nearly in the exact in the same place!!!! (of course some are a tiny bit more left or right).
This axis can be spotted well regarding the ESB LOGO. If you check the farest point to the left from the logo were the black border ends (or starts coming from the left) you have your axis!
Of course the cardbacks are cut different....so its only a vague hint!!!

Here is some examples:



Again...I could proof this on ALL those cardbacks, no matter which character, bubble type etc!



havent much pictures to compare MOCs, but I can already tell you that some Bossks (remeber...there was 1000s on the published list) I have checked are FAR AWAY from this axis!

Coincidence?? I dont think so!!




What do guys think??


I really would like Mirco, Wolfgang and Panastur, or any other collector with some cardbacks checking theirs for some kind of pattern! Again in short:
The middle/centre axis of all bubbles has the same (nearly) distance to the boarder of the cardback. The fakes are different because they are more middled to the colored background were the figure is placed one!


I leave it to the guys now which have some originals in hand, but IMO this could be a key! *fingers crossed*

As i said on RS, very good observation Wolf, you could have cracked it here, great work.

Great research, Wolff!

I just checked my only GM Leia Bespin cardback (single stem) and the stem indeed lines up with the logo as you describe.

I have an AFA MOC double stem of her and it is a little hard to tell for sure inside (depth perception makes it a little more difficult) but it looks to be off center by about 3-4mm.

So on the ESB Bossk, according to the axis theory put forward by Wolf, there is a variance of the blister peel line on breached cardbacks that lines up "before" the U in "Bounty" whereas the outer right edge of the blister on the Toni MOC lines up "after" the U in "Bounty" - see blue lines in image below:



That's one heck of a discovery there Wolf.  

It would be good to have some comparisons with other figures, as the blister placement will differ - for instance I noticed the variance on Darth Vader and the Royal Guard, so it would be good to have examples of Toni cards for each one to see how they measure up.

Personally speaking, if the ESB could consistently be proven to have varied from the "factory" placement of the blister, that would be enough for me to know the Palitoy ROTJ are fakes.

You cant go with the outer lines...that would be too easy I am afraid! There was different bubbles used (width wise) and so the only thing that mmatters IMO is the middle axis!


@J:

Sorry to hear that bro...lets see what the experts dig out! I am dreaming odf a data bank now, i.e. Originals bubbles are placed 4,5-4,7 centimeters from the left boarder (mddle axis). All others are sealed later!

That would be awesome! But still#. Maybe I am totally wrong! A real pitty I have not ONE card in my hands!

wbobafett wrote:

You cant go with the outer lines...that would be too easy I am afraid! There was different bubbles used (width wise) and so the only thing that mmatters IMO is the middle axis!
(

Ok, so what am I to interpret from the photos - the middle stem at the bottom of the blister should be dead center on the red axis line?

yeah....the picture I had for reference are not really good....wee need someone to do those measurements!

I can see the problem here: The single stem to the right looks spot on! BUT...it is 3-D! What looks spot on is the surface...the top of the bubble. If you project it to the card it is totally OFF!!!! Way more to the right!

I need help on that one! I have not one single crad here for proof!

Of course you may right that also the outerline could be important, because only one kind of single stem blisters was used for Bossk but that is IMo dangerous!

I hope for massive support from the guys that have a set!


PS: You can see it more on the others I have posted??

Anyway....the üpics are crap...useful pics needed and people having those in hands! I did messurements an all of them (pixel wise) and the Bossk all loose! You can see I used the "outer" lines of the MOCS...were the bubble hits the cards!

I am not good in this in english

...the list only contains 132 Luke Bepsin JEDI cards!!!

Just to let you know!

Jup....didnt sleep well the last days because my head is running wild, but Jackie always helps

The ROTJ Bespin Luke 45 backs are unfortunately the most common Palitoy Bespin Lukes as well  

General Kahn wrote:

The ROTJ Bespin Luke 45 backs are unfortunately the most common Palitoy Bespin Lukes as well  

Coincidence???....sadly not I assume!

The first results are there:

Originals should have a distance from the blister middle to the boarder of the cardboard of:

35-37 mm!

Please post your observations!

Leia Bespin single stem GM 45 back reporting in - ~34.5mm.

This is based off the center of the outline of the stem (stem measured ~19mm wide at the widest part).

cheers!

I again checked all the pics I have gathered and searched again the web on FETT on ROTJ 45C!

So this will alll about BOBA FETT ROTJ 45C (Pal)

There is 482    unused cardbacks on the list that Joiner has posted!

I repost Billy Boys posts from 2003 again!
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t809708/

[Billy_Boy]....

Over a decade ago I truly 'struggled' to find the 'almost fabled' Palitoy RotJ 45 back of the 'Tri-logo' (light blue) Boba Fett...BUT now there are quite a few 'out there'!?!
There is a rumoured 'theory' that many of the remaining figures near the demise of Palitoy in the UK, were carded on to any surplus cardback going?! = The 'Tri-logo' Boba Fett variant certainly would 'fit the bill'! = I didn't originally see an example at retail until late 1984 / early '85?!? So how did it end up on the late 1982 / early '83 45 back?

= Palitoy had a Boba Fett on the Tri-logo card too!

Does anyone know where this 'glut' of European 45 backs actually/specifically came from???

Bill


...and:

[Billy_Boy]Sure!...Not ALL German 45 backs are easy to find!

Far from it in fact! BUT just recently a LOT of 'case fresh' examples have been appearing?!

= Can anyone explain to me why?

ALL the Palitoy RotJ 45 back 'Tri-logo' Boba Fetts that have only recently appeared seem to be in near 'perfect' condition too?!

= Am I the only collector to find this a little 'odd'? + Does anyone have a 'worn' carded example below 'C8'???

Bill

And that is the same question 10 years later:
[size=150]
Has anyone ever seen a lightblue "trilogo" Fett on a worn ROTJ 45C or 65 back??[/size]

I haven't!

What I have found:


1. IRONED FETTS

I still doubt these are connected to the same ones we call Toni's now. These are really sloppy...with no sense for where the bubble belongs...etc!!

What is interesting about those:
A. They probably come from the same batch of loose unused cardbacks!
B. The ironed stuff lacks the potential to hold for ever. A lot of have been falling part!
C. MOST important to me is the fact that also lightblue, so called Trilogo Fetts were used for those!!!




What you can see here is one lifted example (to the right) with clear iron marks and the triangular tab between the stem. I also found two loose cardbacks (RS limelight, Ebay). These are 100% ironed examples. One even has the triangular iron mark present below. Both have the blister sealed waaaay to high (compare to the MOC) and both seem to have lifted easily!

Again: Imo these are not from the same creator of the TT MOCs!


2. LEGIT  CARDBACKS

It was hard to find some more loose cardbacks but I have found two! These do both NOT MATCH A SINGLE AFA 90 (= TT MOC). They both only have one sealed brother I have found. And this one has a footer and a waffle pattern!



As you can see on the MOC example the thickness of the seal as well as the position is a match! The Moc is Plaitoy ROTJ 45C unpunched. The part of the blister which has flat contact to the cardback is not sealed fully. It is only sealed were the waffle pattern appears and that is a telltale how the "form" must have looked that heatsealed those in factory.
What also can be seen is the lack of a seal in the middle lower bottom. If we look at the carded example, we can conclude that the footer maybe was a tiny bit to thick and at the very lower bottom prevented a correct seal.

But please decide yourself....all three are a total match IMO.



3. QUESTIONABLE  CARDBACKS

On all those other casfresh crads I have found not ONE USED LOOSE CADBACK OR A MOC WITH CREASES, PRICESTICKER etc!

Have a look, there is three types:
(please do not take too much attention to the 3-D shape of the bubble...these are mostly photoshopped to compare the card and position of the blister...all in one and the same level...so everything that is 3-d is off...mostly...LOL)


FIRST TYPE: No Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the right. With Aligned I mean the inner border of the blister! See the vertical red line!




SECOND TYPE: Double Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the right. With Aligned I mean the outer border of the blister! See the vertical red line!




THIRD TYPE: Double Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the left. With Aligned I mean the outer border of the blister! See the vertical red line!




On the COOs of those: We have mostly "Trilogo" no coo figures on that (like on the ironed ones!!!). We also have small HK, large HK and Taiwan marked Fetts! Is this normal?? I dont know......


Again, all of those cards above are:
A. Minty Mint
B. Punched but never saw a shop (price sticker). Even thou these cards DO exist UNPUNCHED....see the wffle pattern one!
C. Contain a figure that should have appeared way later (Trilogo Fett) and also match the figure examples that were found on the ironed ones!
D. NOT ONE USED LOOSE OR MOC FROM THOSE IS KNOWN!


Anyone else?? I also find it disturbing that there seemed to be always the use of a "refernece line"

Please dig out your loose cardbacks! I really would love to see a ripped and used double stem....

Wolff

PS: Please excuse my spelling

QC error ( misaligned colour plates??) GM




Double stem GM 45 cardbacks ( no english text)
21B- 35mm
Leia Hoth- 36mm
Snowtrooper- 34mm

IG88-35mm


Palitoy ESB45B (bubble number)

AT-AT Commander- 03
FX-7- 08
Bespin guard black- 01

Great research Wolff.

Here's another example of a 'ironed' Palitoy 45 back. Again it came with a Tri-Fett.   

Well... this is embarrassing, but I'll post it for the good of the community!

While checking my moc's, I discovered another 'ironed' example, complete with matching marks on the card. F@#k!!!  

This is a 65 back.



For comparison here's an outline of a genuine Palitoy seal on a double stemmed 65 back. This one also has a flaw in the seal at the top, similar to those described by Wolff for the German ESB 45 backs on the previous page.

Here is a Palitoy ROTJ 45 Back C for Boba Fett with pop removed and price tag (a few mm from the bottom is missing because of the scan)