Does anybody know how AFA uses black lights? what do they look for with them?
I think this is pretty important as if AFA uses them, they surely would have come across all this before, and they should be able to shed light on what you are seeing here Josh.
This leaves a massive amount of questions as far as AFA are concerned.

Wolfgang posted on SWFUK that out of all his German MOC and German card backs ONLY the Toni cards glow like they have been to Fukushima. So anything childhood or store bought was not glowing blue, anything that was connected to Toni was.

Um..touched up figure? What am I seeing here?

My bad folks. I messed up. I should of taken the cards out of the case. ha ha. I didn't even think about it since I couldn't remove the UKG graded figure.
I took the cards out of the Oscar cases to compare with the one in the UKG case under the black light and low and behold they glow also. All but one does. So the pics I posted early of the cards lined up means nothing.


And his elbow I don't know what's going on there. That's looking like cardboard stuck to it or something. There is a bit of damage to the card as well but it's not near the arm, Quite possibly could of happened when it was manufactured I guess. So at this stage I am clearing the card and figure. And it's just the bubble that maybe suspect I guess but it otherwise looks good.
Sorry for the alarm. At least it's cleared now I will post some pics up again in the morning to show it's all good. For now I am going to bed.

Just bought this off Toy Toni, think it's a reseal, looks off, fucking fuming!


Love what your doing here Josh, great work mate    wish I could add something, but this ain't my field.

 yep I second what Alex said. Great work Josh on summarising such a long thread over on SWFUK   I dont own any of the mocs in question so I dont feel qualified to comment on the authenticity of Toni's mocs, but I'm amazed at the ingenious ways some of the guys have investigated Toni. Including his previous business relations, as well as the different aspects of identyfying tell tale signs about the mocs questionable authenticity.

Josh wrote:

Wolfgang posted on SWFUK that out of all his German MOC and German card backs ONLY the Toni cards glow like they have been to Fukushima. So anything childhood or store bought was not glowing blue, anything that was connected to Toni was.

I've debunked that theory (I think). I've got 65bk Meccano's that glow like that too.

Me on SWFUK wrote:

Hey everyone,

Honestly I've been quiet on this (sans a few small posts on TIG) because I think something doesn't add up in my mind. I think this revelation, the fake ironed stormies, and list are just overwhelming evidence against Toni so, something is wrong with it. JJ seems to keep trying to move past this, like there is nothing more to see. I don't think it's the case. However, Toni himself is the main reason I have doubts. Had he come forward earlier I think this would have stopped about 80 pages ago.

My issue is that there seem to be many running theories about identifying. Crescent shaped openings mid bubble, blobs of ink, the little dimples, the "03" stamp, press marks on the back, and they seem to be debunked. Is there any list of what's been tried as a possible identifier?

BTW - if there was 25,000 "items" is it not possible there were thousands of MOCs that were from the missing pages? I think Jason said 11,000 or so were the added total. So maybe 14,000 MOCs were there?

I'm not trying to make things difficult but I do want to point out a few things. If theyve been covered I apologize

1)My Glasslite MOCs have no pressure on the backs. If I showed you the back only, you'd think it was a proof.

2)I did the blacklight thing. My TT 2-1B didn't shine like Bossk did. But my Meccano 65bk Ree Yees was pretty close! I used a Kenner MOC Dengar (in honor of Josh) and big difference. I don't know if blacklights will be the answer







I think someone mentioned who has what, I have

GM 45bk 2-1B on single stem - English Text - little circles (or holes) on bubble top
GM 45bk Bossk on single stem - No Text - little circles (or holes) on bubble top
GM 45bk C3PO on single stem - No Text - no little circles

None have the crescent lift as described.

My 2-1B does have that rough look someone else showed , almost like water damage that lifts the cardboard. Barely visible but you can tell.

and

Me on TIG wrote:

One last debunk of the blacklight



That's a Meccano 65bk General Madine I got from Stephane. No doubts there

I though it was a given that the cards and bubbles are genuine. I thought the use of the black light was to show if there is a difference in the sealing process and to highlight if any of the figures had been touched up  

Me too Chris, just seemed like there was a lot about glowing cards, not sure why, I've probably missed something  :scratch: 

I think the significance of colour misalignment and other printing errors was to try to identify mocs, that are out there in peoples collections, that could possibly originate back to TT. As the theory, as far as i can make out is, that the cards used by TT were either overstock or seconds, that never made it passed Palitoy QC. The use of a black light may possibly highlight these printing flaws, but i'm not sure either.

I'm amazed so many people reckon "Palitoy QC" would have stopped any crap getting though.

How much mis-cards, factory errors, missing paint jobs, incorrect weapons, missing weapons are out there!!

I'm sure the odd "pink spot" or "mis-aligned colour layered" card would have gone though QC easy enough, or am I missing something?!?!

Yeah, if QC was so tight, how did this B wing pilot get through   

walkie wrote:

I'm amazed so many people reckon "Palitoy QC" would have stopped any crap getting though.

How much mis-cards, factory errors, missing paint jobs, incorrect weapons, missing weapons are out there!!

I'm sure the odd "pink spot" or "mis-aligned colour layered" card would have gone though QC easy enough, or am I missing something?!?!

I was talking to Scott about this as well: eg. cardbacks that look like '3-D' without '3-D' glasses on (colour plates misaligned?)

reminder of AFA dislaimer: "All findings related to this item....not responsible....no guarantee....not liable .....

Yeah, I fucked up. I didn't think to them take it out of the Oscar since I couldn't easily open the UKG one. It's actually good advertising for Oscar. :PUV light does not get through his cases

AS for the 25,000 figure. Jason said that was for everything. Which worked out rougly to be 13,500 items on the list + however many bubbles you get in 6 cartons worth.

What I want to know is. If these card backs existed, and they aren't what Toni has been selling, then where are they? Seems a bit odd they could just disappear like that don't you think? We aren't talking a couple here now are we?

General Kahn wrote:

I know it's not relevant to the thread, but just to say, back at the factory there used to be a sheet put up on the notice board every week with all the quality control issue feedback from the actual purchasers of the product I.E. Tesco, M&S etc. - metal found in meat, card found in meat etc. etc. this was every week! Pages of the stuff! The average piece of meat would go through about 5 departments before being sold I.E. Slaughter Line, Cut Line, Butchery, ham slice, chop line, rib line, pre pack etc. etc. Point being, everysingle department had it's own QC and some even had metal detectors and yet you could still end up with metal in the final product. This is for food for humans! Do you really think QC at a toy factory would be as perfect as you'd all like it to have been???

I agree with you. I just think now this allegation has been made and given the evidence, I think we at least give it a good look over. Those card backs would have ended up somewhere. Someone would be selling them now if they had that many on them. We are talking 11,000+ card backs possibly here.

Toni's behaviour in all of this is what males me think it's all true. Surely someone must be in contact with him behind the scenes here? It's utter BS he has just gone silent.

4 days before Christmas I'd be doing my 'own thing'

I think you could find the time to at least make a couple of replies to your customers

Anyway. Until someone comes up with something else that's me out. Would much rather be doing my 'Own thing' also, rather than trying to work this shit out any longer. Seems the majority of people just want to blame instead of actually trying to do anything proactive about it all.

Merry Christmas everyone.

chris.75 wrote:

Yeah, if QC was so tight, how did this B wing pilot get through   

Because by 1985 it was the end of the line and there was little or no QC, people were losing their jobs I don't know if a QC dept even existed by then. It certainly did during the earlier era the TT cards came from of 1982/83. I collect Palitoys Action Man too and with that it's the same story i.e. things get crazy in 1985.

So Trilogo is it's own beast, uneffected by the TT scandal.

[QUOTE=CollectInvest;19296464]Hello Everyone,

It has been quite some time since I’ve posted on these forums, but the recent situation regarding figures originating from ToyToni is certainly one on a large enough scale to warrant my posting here. The following observations and opinions represent only my personal thoughts on the situation based on my understanding of what has transpired thus far. There is so much information, both in the form of well thought out observations, as well as unfounded accusations that it is difficult to fully wrap my head around everything, so please be advised that changes to some of my opinions are likely as more information is gathered.

Background

First, I would point out that this specific situation differs significantly from any other which has ever occurred within this hobby. IF true, this is not the same as previous instances where unscrupulous individuals have made fake or reproduction items. It isn’t even the same as when coins were allegedly re-struck using the original vintage dies or hardcopies allegedly created using vintage silicon molds. IF true, this would be an entirely new issue in the collecting community because it would theoretically involve all authentic vintage materials. This distinction is quite important for several reasons.

Expert opinions are formed from years of experience, proven techniques of observation and study, and available knowledge within the collectible community at any given time. Any experienced collector or expert can be adept at spotting reseals (i.e. blisters which at one point were opened and then glued back to the card) or detecting recards (i.e. cards which have been recently printed for the purpose of carding loose figures), but not one collector, dealer, or expert that I am aware of (including myself, CIB, AFA, or UKG) has any experience detecting something of the type being investigated here. This is because, to my knowledge, there has never been any substantiated find of a large quantity of unused vintage cardbacks and blisters previously. This is an entirely new animal. In fact, if there were a find like this today, the unused cardbacks would, in the vast majority of scenarios, be worth much more than carded figures, the only obstacle being the sheer quantities of certain cardbacks. There wouldn’t be any motivation to mount blisters on cards when the cards would be worth much more on their own.

The two primary methods used to detect altered items are entirely useless in a scenario such as the one being investigated. Detecting reseals by looking for signs that an item was once sealed and then opened do not apply because even if these items are what many collectors fear, they are not reseals. They would not have been sealed to begin with. With the countless combinations of card types, blister types, and blister seals present on European issue figures, it would be next to impossible to determine when an authentic blister was actually sealed to an authentic cardback. There is simply no known method to detect whether something was sealed in 1983 or 1993. There has never been a reason to develop such a method, nor could one likely be developed even if there were, especially in the case of primarily smooth blister seals. By the same token, methods used to detect recards would be useless as well. A loupe or higher power form of magnification can detect that an item was not printed using printing methods of the vintage era, but these authentic cardbacks would have been printed in the vintage era. Vintage cardbacks are vintage cardbacks and distinguishing which batch they were printed in is virtually impossible, as it would take a larger scientific sample of known authentic cardbacks from different sources than is likely to be accessible to the vintage collecting community.

It is important to keep in mind that not one collector, dealer, or expert in the world had any evidence or made any observations, outside of the high condition (which would be present for case fresh figures any way), that would have made a distinction between the figures in question and other similar figures known to be sealed in the vintage era, prior to the information recently provided by Jason Joiner, but apparently known to him for over two decades. The information is certainly useful now, but would have been much more useful to the community if divulged much earlier. However, that is neither here nor there. At this point, the only thing that can be done is attempt to confirm the true nature of the items. Are they authentic vintage carded figures or are they authentic vintage parts of carded figures sealed at a later date than the date of original issue? Using existing terms such as fake, resealed, bootleg, or reproduction are simply incorrect and not applicable to this situation. Nothing materially would be fake about these items, other than possibly the type of adhesive. That being said, very little is known today about the specific vintage adhesives used or blister sealing process any way. However, the nature of the items would certainly be different as they would not have been sealed in the true vintage era, making them intrinsically different.

Moving Forward

The bad news is that these figures are now likely to always be suspect within the collecting community. I believe it is more than likely that the court of public opinion will come to some type of majority consensus when this is over, but I think that short of some type of confession by Toni, there is unlikely to ever be enough evidence to be absolutely certain. This is primarily due to the relatively small number of control samples available to the collecting community and the very large number of production variations which are known to occur during different processes at different times and different locations. I have personally seen countless printing flaws which made it through QC to retail and are MUCH worse than any printing differences observed in the threads I’ve read on this topic.

As many contributors to these threads have mentioned, it is important to not rush to judgment. I haven’t seen any smoking gun which completely implicates Toni in any wrong-doing. I don’t know him personally, but like anyone else, he should get the benefit of the doubt until as many facts are out as possible. So far though, the numerous observations, while circumstantial, are adding up and his refraining from comment to a significant degree or attempting to defend himself are hurting his case more than any other factors. However, everyone is different. While some people immediately become defensive and present their side of a story, others choose to refrain from commenting for extended periods of time. This doesn’t necessarily support guilt or innocence.

However, it is my personal opinion that moving forward, honest sellers should disclose the questions surrounding these figures when they are offered for sale. This greatly affects me personally (possibly more so than any other individual) because in addition to the 30-40 figures of this type I had stashed away, I just spent about $10,000 at the recent Vectis auction on additional figures of this type. I thought the prices were decent and that they would be a good long term investment. While that is still possible, it seems less likely than a significant loss in value.

It is also my personal opinion that both AFA and UKG should continue to monitor the situation and decide what both companies can do to warn collectors about the possible nature of these items if that course of action seems warranted once all information which can be brought to light is brought to light. I agree that the response from AFA seems too curt and should have included something about continuing to monitor the situation as it develops. I am traveling now, but will personally bring that up with them after Christmas.

At the present time, it would seem that an important issue is what should be done by AFA and UKG. As suggested by Joseph_Y and several other forum members, but going a step further, IF, after additional research and investigation it appears that anything below board can be substantiated, EVERY example of any carded figure variation on the suspect list should potentially be labeled with a qualified label moving forward. The accompanying document should briefly summarize the situation and the possibility that while the item can be verified to be vintage in regard to material, no absolute determination can be made in regard to when the blister was originally sealed to the card. Again, with such a limited number of control samples and hardly any qualified to be labeled as ‘scientific’, with everyone taking everyone else at their word and items changing hands so many times over the years, I have little faith that anything will ever be entirely conclusive. Additionally, this same disclaimer should be added to the verification page on AFA’s website when the serial number of any previously graded figure which represents a suspect variation is searched for / verified by any user of their web site. Furthermore, I agree that if requested, any suspect figure should be re-evaluated free of charge by AFA and re-cased with a Qualified label. Keep in mind, these suggestions are my opinion at the moment. I have not discussed this with AFA, but I believe it is in their best interest to make collectors aware of the possibility that these specific carded figure variations may have first been sealed after the original issue date, assuming ongoing analysis supports this approach.

Regarding use of a black light, it is with significant experience that I will say that this will more than likely create more misinformation than help. It helped with hardcopies, but I believe that was due to age and not specific material type. With carded figures, it can help detect ink and RE-sealing. However, both black light and significant magnification in regard to an original blister seal (i.e. not resealed) usually create more confusion and suspicion than help. I can say based on very significant experience that if you analyze most blister seals under extreme scrutiny of this type, you’ll begin to think that maybe everything is suspect. Expect very mixed and inconsistent results.

Being that I have 80-100 carded figures of these types from different sources over the years (most of which likely trace originally to Toy Toni) I would be uniquely suited to compare decent quantities side by side, some of which I know are from different sources and absolutely authentic. However, I cannot start on this until after the holidays. In addition to traveling, I am in a mad rush to complete a huge My Little Pony wonderland for my oldest daughter before Christmas. While that may sound trivial to many on here, others with children of their own will understand that the children absolutely come first.

Additionally, I am in the final stages of completing the long awaited book and planned to devote most of my time immediately following Christmas to completing that project so that it can be sent for printing. After that, I have agreed to start February 1st on several web projects to improve multiple websites for which I have already committed my time. I will designate a contact at CIB, Rob (rob@collectinvest.com) to be a communication point for the forum members most knowledgeable in regard to this topic and most active and integral to these threads. You know who you are and if you want to bounce information back and forth with Rob, please feel encouraged to do so. He could also address or relay questions to me about any specific characters that I have available to examine and photograph.

All of this makes my head hurt because the situation is so complicated due to the sheer numbers and large amount of time spanned.

The only good news moving forward is that this affects only a handful of specific carded variations from Palitoy and General Mills. It would be incredibly unlikely to occur in the future for the simple reason that truly unused cardbacks carry so much value in the present day market and as stated earlier, are in most cases more valuable than an identical carded figure. You’ve got to find the silver lining, though it’s not much of one. I certainly hope Toni prepares a detailed response and/or additional information comes to light which clears all this up. Until then, I’ll reserve any final judgment.

I don’t have time to respond or comment in such detail moving forward. I do however have faith that many of the more experienced and level-headed members of the multiple forums involved will do a good job focusing on finding the truth, whatever that may be.

Thanks for reading,



Tom

P.S. I don't check PMs here, so please email me if you'd like to reach me. Also, other forums such as SWFUK are free to repost this in any other applicable thread(s).[/QUOTE]

Josh wrote:
Neither do my 45 backs, have waffle patterns that is, but you can clearly see they have had pressure applied on the back and some even on the front, there are marks left by the plate pressing onto it. The only one that doesnt it the Toni moc :/


You can also see out of all of them it is clearly darker, check out the chest armour, which Del tends to think wouldn't pass QC. It is the one on the right in the pic. (Looking at it)


Before the list surfaced I had some concern about these 3 MOC's but now it's just the Hammerhead, I can see the bubble position from the back implying there was pressure used, although it's not as visable as the other 2 MOC's. also seen a GM PD in hand yesterday which looks the same as my Hammerhead from the back.

These pics aren't great but if any one wants something else just ask
https://s19.photobucket.com/user/scotthughes1/library/Pics