ackbar100 wrote:

olisuds wrote:

Ackbar100, I didnt mean to single your POCH CCP out because it was just the first example I came across. You may well be certain that your CCP is a genuine POCH. Others don't share that opinion yet and just see a regular Made In Hong Kong CCP with a melt mark. You haven't provided any additional detail of what makes this figure unique to PBP/POCH hence I am sceptical until I hear what characteristics make it PBP/POCH.

Information on how to identify these PBP/POCH variants needs to be shared. Its no use telling us there is a POCH CCP if you can't explain what it is that makes it unique. People wont just take your word for it

Cheers Oli

Hi Oli ,
I totally understand your point of view -you don't know you don't trust-, I do the same. My profile here is still very low and it is not the same that I sell my figure than "others" do the same. Of course, I could share more information but the last guys that tried to do it were hardly questioned -javitc, infantelo-. It seems that if you have a figure than others don't owned it... then that figure doesn't exist.

I know that many collectors have appeared during the last months -like me- but it doesn't mean we weren't there collecting pbp/poch figures, it only means we didn't want to use this tool to communicate between us. It takes us big effort to write in English -for instance, me-.

Of course, it's more easy to find rare figures to us, we live here and we get figures from street markets, local newspaper advertising and even given to us for free from friends of our childhood. it is more easy to find replacement for a harley in the US than in Spain and nobody speak about that.

Regarding the prices you are right, they are increasing dramaticaly during the last year. It could be because more people is now interested in that kind of figures or maybe because it takes you a lot of time, trips to check local collections to find a CCP in great condition with original weapons... it is not easy, I promise you.


All my text doesn't mean you can buy all figures you were offered from Spain, you have to be cautious, even from people close to you.

To finish, you say in your post: "My thoughts are that it might not matter too much if POCH and PBP are the same or different companies". In my opinion, this is really important because the fact they were the same company show us that the facilities used for the figures production were the same and manipulated for the same stuff.

My goal when I arrived at this forum -like other spanish collectors- was to share my collection and speak about this great hobby but I am afraid it is going to take me time to change my mind and share the rest of my collection. I have to think about.

Well with all due respect I dont think it is up to us to prove ourselves to you. If you have figures that you believe are unique POCHs and you want to sell them for big money, then you are the one that needs to prove it. It's all very well telling us that a POCH CCP is real but until you can offer us an explanation then you really have no argument.

I'm not saying the history of POCH and PBP companies is not interesting. I'm saying its not necessary to understand this in order to validate a new and unique variant. What is necessary are details of paint or mould variations.

It's no use watching this thread from the outside and not contributing anything to it and then critisicing other people lack of belief. Everyone has the opportunity to join in and contribute their knowledge if they want to.

We are listening now and waiting with an open mind.

P.S. I welcomed both you and Luis to the boards. I dont think we have been hard to either of you and I'm sure you are both strong enough characters to cope with some light questioning from keen and enthusiastic collectors. I certainly hope you both stick around and tell us more.

I modified part of the Introduction of this thread to incorporate the newest info.

Modifications are in yellow, questions in blue. Please review.


ESB PRODUCTION PERIOD: 1981 - 1982 (POCH ERA)

PBP was a toy company that emerged from the merger of three Spanish toy companies in May 1981. The name PBP is derived from its three parent companies, i.e. POCH, Borras, and Palouzieon. The former POCH factory (the first "P" from "PBP" so to spreak) was responsible for the Star Wars 3 3/4" toy line. Production started after the merge in 1981 with the release of ESB 31 backs, followed with the release of the ESB 37/41 backs. Though the toys were produced by the merged PBP company, the POCH logo was used on the cards and boxes. This decision was marketing driven as POCH was a well known brand for Spanish consumers.

These 37/41 backs are famous for their great landscape oriented vintage art work at the back. Only 37 different figures were shown, though the numbering went up to 41. According to one theory, the missing figures are the 4 Cantina aliens which were exclusively produced for the US market by PBP at that time.

POCH/PBP ESB 31 back. POCH logo used on the back and the front.

Source: http://www.starwarsspanishstuff.info

POCH/PBP ESB 37/41 back. POCH logo used on the back and the front.

Source: http://www.starwarsspanishstuff.info

Black neck Lando on POCH/PBP ESB 37/41 back.

Source: http://www.starwarsspanishstuff.info


PBP ESB 45/47 back. POCH logo absent. PBP logo on the back.

Source: http://www.starwarsspanishstuff.info

Hammerhead, Snaggletooth, and Walrusman were released one year later (1982) on ESB 45/47 backs together with a few other characters. Probably also Greedo was released on a ESB 45/47 back but this has not been confirmed sofar. Cloud Car Pilot, Luke Hoth, AT AT Commander, might be released on 45/47 backs as well.
NOTE: Is there any proof provided by cardbacks/MOCs for CCP, LH, AAC?
If so, I am very curious in what way the paint scheme of these late ''POCH" ESB figures differs from Kenner versions.
And how about Black Bespin Guard?


The Spanish produced figures of the ESB Production Period - further indicated as POCH figures - are characterised by:
1) Hong Kong COOs
2) unique paint jobs (e.g. Lando black neck, Chewbacca black pouch, Han Hoth chocolate legs, pale hands)
3) production flaws (factory errors if you like), like:
- imperfect sonic welding (resulting in small cracks between the torso halves)
- melt marks
- small plastic extrusions
- appearance of small 'bubbles' on the plastic surface
- small droplets of paint residing on the painted surface
- sloppy paint jobs (handpainted?)


During the ESB Production Period overstock parts from the Far East were possibly used to produce figures as well. This resulted in hybrid figures, like Bespin Guard or Lobot having one pale and one normal hand.
NOTE: Do we expect the use of overstock already in the ESB Production Period, or first later in the (transition to the) ROTJ Production Period. Both periods?


In this thread the specific POCH traits will be visualized for each figure discussed here. Keep in mind that each individual POCH figure may differ in the amount and exact location of these traits.

Just a few examples to give you an idea:

POCH Han Hoth: chocolate legs variant.



POCH Star Destroyer Commander.


When identifying/buying POCH figures, you can make use of the "POCH rule":
A. Differences in colour scheme (paint applications) should be there when labelling a figure as POCH.
B. All other aspects (melt marks, sloppy paint jobs, welding cracks, plastic extrusions,..) are considered a welcome bonus, further confirming the POCH identity, but only once condition A has been fulfilled.



ROTJ PRODUCTION PERIOD: 1983 - 1985 (PBP ERA)

The ROTJ Production Period started with the release of ROTJ 65 backs, and later continued as Trilogo 79-backs. Many of these figures were imported from the Far East and sealed on cardbacks by PBP. These figures are not unique for the PBP toy line and will therefore not be covered in this thread.

PBP 65 back.

Source: http://www.starwarsspanishstuff.info

In addition, PBP produced some figures in their own factory for release on these cardbacks. Among these are some interesting variants. Some of these variants appear to be unique for the PBP line. Take for instance the 4-LOM figure with red chest armour, or the Luke Hoth with pale face. Other figures appear to be released on other European cards as well, like the pale face AT AT commander or the pale face Dengar. All these figures will be covered in this thread sometimes with a note that they have not been confirmed to be PBP exclusive.

Pale face Luke Hoth on PBP 65 back.

Source: http://www.starwarsspanishstuff.info

Interestingly, some figures released by PBP are virtually indistinguishable from their Ledy counterparts (figure and accessories). According to one theory, Lili Ledy exported these figures from Mexico to Spain, where they were subsequently packed onto PBP cards. This seems to be the case for C-3PO, Klaatu, Ben Kenobi, Luke Bespin, R2D2, Yoda. Maybe Weequay as well. However, sofar there has been no proof that Mexican figures were exported to Spain. Maybe, PBP received these figures via the main Palitoy warehouse in the UK.

The Spanish produced figures of the ROTJ Production Period - further indicated as PBP figures - are characterised by:
1) Removed COOs. NOTE: Were the same steel mould used as in the ESB Period, just having the COOs removed? That would mean that for instance a POCH Han Hoth has the same mould as the PBP Han Hoth.
2) unique paint jobs (e.g. Pale face Han Hoth, Luke Hoth, Pink face Cloud Car Pilot, ...)
3) hard more detailed plastic used for the torsos (Stormtrooper, Snowtrooper, Bikerscout,...)
4) typical sharp PBP plastic smell.


Probably somewhere in the transition from the ESB to ROTJ Production Period, PBP changed the production process from POCH standard (with a lot of production flaws) to better quality PBP standard. This transition was not done overnight. Overstock from the ESB ("POCH") Period could very well be incorporated into figures from the ROTJ ("PBP") Period, resulting in hybrid figures, having both POCH and PBP traits.
NOTE: Ackbar, a picture of your hybrid Cloud Car Pilot having a Hong Kong COO and a pale face would be helpful here.

ackbar100 wrote:

olisuds wrote:

Ackbar100, I didnt mean to single your POCH CCP out because it was just the first example I came across. You may well be certain that your CCP is a genuine POCH. Others don't share that opinion yet and just see a regular Made In Hong Kong CCP with a melt mark. You haven't provided any additional detail of what makes this figure unique to PBP/POCH hence I am sceptical until I hear what characteristics make it PBP/POCH.

Information on how to identify these PBP/POCH variants needs to be shared. Its no use telling us there is a POCH CCP if you can't explain what it is that makes it unique. People wont just take your word for it

Cheers Oli

Hi Oli ,
I totally understand your point of view -you don't know you don't trust-, I do the same. My profile here is still very low and it is not the same that I sell my figure than "others" do the same. Of course, I could share more information but the last guys that tried to do it were hardly questioned -javitc, infantelo-. It seems that if you have a figure than others don't owned it... then that figure doesn't exist.

I know that many collectors have appeared during the last months -like me- but it doesn't mean we weren't there collecting pbp/poch figures, it only means we didn't want to use this tool to communicate between us. It takes us big effort to write in English -for instance, me-.

Of course, it's more easy to find rare figures to us, we live here and we get figures from street markets, local newspaper advertising and even given to us for free from friends of our childhood. it is more easy to find replacement for a harley in the US than in Spain and nobody speak about that.

Regarding the prices you are right, they are increasing dramaticaly during the last year. It could be because more people is now interested in that kind of figures or maybe because it takes you a lot of time, trips to check local collections to find a CCP in great condition with original weapons... it is not easy, I promise you.


All my text doesn't mean you can buy all figures you were offered from Spain, you have to be cautious, even from people close to you.

To finish, you say in your post: "My thoughts are that it might not matter too much if POCH and PBP are the same or different companies". In my opinion, this is really important because the fact they were the same company show us that the facilities used for the figures production were the same and manipulated for the same stuff.

My goal when I arrived at this forum -like other spanish collectors- was to share my collection and speak about this great hobby but I am afraid it is going to take me time to change my mind and share the rest of my collection. I have to think about.

Hi Ackbar.
I´m agree with you in every letter you write. People, please, you have to try to open your mind. We can not think that the figure I have, is the real POCH one, and If the characteristics of another figure is not the same the one I have, Its something wrong. Different thoughts contribute to enrich the topic (reasonables thoughts).
Please, this topic can not be like the spanish inquisition (if you have a different idea, then, you will burn in hell ).
I have this feelling with some answers to the topics of the spanish guys (ackbar, Ifantelo, me...).
You have to keep in mind that if we live in Spain, the chances of getting new spanish figures, is much more high, so we can see, differents aspects of this figures that someone who live outside Spain can do with much more efforts (is only statistical) If we can see more figures of spanish childhood collections, probably we can have a more global vision in this theme (the example is the photos of my death squad commander). This not means, that every figure of the spanish chidhoods collections I get, have POCH/PBP characteristics.
About the prices of this POCH figures (not fakes, the real ones), If someone want to pay this amounts, Whats wrong? Welcome to the real world. This happens in all aspects of the life (cars, housing...). I wish I could buy POCH blisters for less than a thousand euros...
I would like to share more photos of my collection in the future, but I would like to see more open minds.
And remember collecting it would be fun, sometimes, I have the feeling that we are talking about if God exits or not, come one, we are talkin about toys (I know, for us they are not simple toys), its a hobby, not the reason I live.
Cheers, javitc.

I am very happy that we got input from Spanish collectors since last week. They have a vast knowlegde of the POCH/PBP line and I am sure we can learn a lot from them.

Needless to say I am looking forward to any new info and pictures which they will provide in the remainder of this thread.

I think all points have been made by both "camps" more than once now so no need to repeat them.

I propose that we all contribute in creating an open and unbiassed mindset from now on. It is a prerequisite if we want to gain more knowledge, especially in case new knowledge might confilct with current views.

Let the facts speak.

Let's start the POCH Age of Enlightenment.

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POST MOVED TO: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5147-response-to-sergio-thegame-sw-in-the-poch-pbp-discussion-thread#83818

POST MOVED TO: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5147-response-to-sergio-thegame-sw-in-the-poch-pbp-discussion-thread#83818

POST MOVED TO: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5147-response-to-sergio-thegame-sw-in-the-poch-pbp-discussion-thread#83818

POST MOVED TO: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5147-response-to-sergio-thegame-sw-in-the-poch-pbp-discussion-thread#83818

POST MOVED TO: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5147-response-to-sergio-thegame-sw-in-the-poch-pbp-discussion-thread#83818

POST MOVED TO: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5147-response-to-sergio-thegame-sw-in-the-poch-pbp-discussion-thread#83818

POST MOVED TO: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5147-response-to-sergio-thegame-sw-in-the-poch-pbp-discussion-thread#83818

POST MOVED TO: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5147-response-to-sergio-thegame-sw-in-the-poch-pbp-discussion-thread#83818

POST MOVED TO: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5147-response-to-sergio-thegame-sw-in-the-poch-pbp-discussion-thread#83818

Dr Dengar wrote:

Probably somewhere in the transition from the ESB to ROTJ Production Period, PBP changed the production process from POCH standard (with a lot of production flaws) to better quality PBP standard. This transition was not done overnight. Overstock from the ESB ("POCH") Period could very well be incorporated into figures from the ROTJ ("PBP") Period, resulting in hybrid figures, having both POCH and PBP traits.
NOTE: Ackbar, a picture of your hybrid Cloud Car Pilot having a Hong Kong COO and a pale face would be helpful here.

***

Ok, let see how it works.

Hi guys, i wanted to say thanks for this great topic and valuable information. It has been very interesting reading. Some very valid points made by member's, for and against authenticity.
I have a querry or question regarding PBP Darth Vader variant.
I only have interest and collect Darth Vader, so this is why my interest is only on this particular figure.
From info i have read and gathered regarding this figure,here and other threads, is that a PBP Darth Vader is often confused with the "Clipper" variant and shares the same charecteristics as a "Clipper" variant, same COO scar, same textured cape, and possiblly same lightsaber mold. Could this be considered the imported figures which PBP aquired to pack on MOC cards?
Would the distinguishing charecteristics of a true PBP be the melt marks, which would set it asside from the Clipper/PBP version?
It was mentioned that the PBP Darth Vader has a very rough mold. Would this rough mold be the defining charecteristic of a true PBP Darth Vader variant, followed by the melt mark, followed by the COO scar, followed by the textured cape which is commonlly refered to as the "Roguse" cape.?
I would love the hear your thought on a solid comfirmation as to what makes a "True" PBP Darth Vader.

Thanks in advance.
Oscar.

Let's get back to what was Marco's initial idea with this thread: Openly discussing Poch and PBP figures in order to gain knowledge for the community, which would also be beneficial for the variant collectors individually.

A figure which is not present in Wolff's Poch guide, is the Han original. I know, that Javier, Sergio etc know about this variant very well, but therfore some of the variant collectors maybe don't?

I have found four near identical samples from four different sourches in Spain, which all have the same features: "Fat" eye brows (like the Poch IC in this thread), pale hands, pale neck and small belt buckle. Some of them also have small melt marks on the butt/back. The Poch Han's often seem to have a crack in th neck - like many other Poch and PBP produced figures.. Here are some pics of one of them:











To me this is a confirmed Poch Han variant. Same coo (all four), some unique features in the paint, meltmarks etc. So no mixed up figure here in my opinion. There could be more Poch Han Solo variants of course? I have another interesting Han purchased in Spain, but that figure is more likely to be mixed up. But I cannot say that for sure of course..? I'll post some pics soon!

I forgot the pic of the coo:

Hey Bro!!....woow this is awesome

ackbar100 wrote:

Dr Dengar wrote:

Probably somewhere in the transition from the ESB to ROTJ Production Period, PBP changed the production process from POCH standard (with a lot of production flaws) to better quality PBP standard. This transition was not done overnight. Overstock from the ESB ("POCH") Period could very well be incorporated into figures from the ROTJ ("PBP") Period, resulting in hybrid figures, having both POCH and PBP traits.
NOTE: Ackbar, a picture of your hybrid Cloud Car Pilot having a Hong Kong COO and a pale face would be helpful here.

***

Ok, let see how it works.

Some pics of some of the figures of my previous picture: awaiting your opinion :-)
I think this picture should be enough regarding good old R5-D4

Same thing with Yoda...




What about Vader: check a) huge mark on back of head, rough molding, extrisons and the quality of inner cape: I need help with this one

... More to come...

Luis

thegame wrote:

Hey Bro!!....woow this is awesome

Hi Sergio
I am glad to see you here
I knew you would like this figure. I think it is a good example of the transition production inside the same company but changing quality levels.

best

Thanks for posting your pics, Luis.

Let's start with the R5.

Can you help me with what to look for in your pic?

I guess it is not the screw and the little circles (mould circles ejector pin marks) on the legs? :scratch:


BTW: Also a massive thanks to Ackbar (hybrid CCP) and Kenneth (POCH Han Solo).

POST MOVED TO: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5147-response-to-sergio-thegame-sw-in-the-poch-pbp-discussion-thread#83818

In order to focus on the subject at hand, we have decided to move all off topic posts from this thread to here for further discussion.


Please contact me if you do not agree.

Let's move on with discussing figures here.

I will try to start with good old Yoda, quite distinguishable specially through the head colour; afterwards will follow the Jawa (I will post close-ups of both eyes and the different strap) and thirdly Lord Vader: I think that the roughness of the molding will surprise you.

Best and please keep this post going: it's really worth it

[/quote]

As a kid growing up in Holland i was made to believe all of my toys were made in spain, because that's where our version of Santa claus comes from to hand out gifts on the fifth of december On a more serious note: i'm very exited to see some more pictures of poch jawa's , what coo's do they have ? how many models are there?What combination of body and legs do they have ?What does the paintjob look like, and are there any variations ?hope you can put your pics back up and big thumbs up for the Spanish collectors who have shared their insights so far, i really appreciate it .