aussiejames wrote:

I am very happy to see new members from Spain joining this discussion I have strong feelings on this matter with grave fears for people being scammed. But I will keep an open mind & look forward to people sharing their knowledge. I also think that we all need to be respectful of each other & bear in mind that certain things can be lost in translation. I had almost lost all interest in POCH but now have a renewed enthusiasm

James, Couldn't of put it better myself

And Thanks Marco for keeping the thread on track. I think its been a beneficial conversation to have but I think we (I) might have been "beating a dead horse"

Luis welcome onboard and I look forward to hearing more about your collection. It's good to have more Spanish input when we talk about POCH

olisuds wrote:

And Thanks Marco for keeping the thread on track.

And thank you guys for having a good positive discussion right now!

Some good issues and debates raised and thanks to steve for kick starting this discussion. This whole poch thing has been brewing
for a while (especially with me) and it still bothers me what some people are asking for these 'maybe' poch figures and what has been
forked out on them in the last year or so.....i mean, look here at solanceforever/sergio/thegame's chewbacca that someone snapped up in an instant this week. Now, i'm not the best poch expert out there but correct me if i'm wrong. The coo is wrong on this figure and the pouch looks totally wrong colour wise to me. Not black enough?? Or is this another poch mixed figure where only one of the arms is poch? (sarcasm intended)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAR-WARS-VINTAGE-CHEWBACCA-POCH-BLACK-POUCH-VARIANT-C95-MINT-/181034947951?pt=UK_ToysGames_ActionFigures_ActionFigures_JN&hash=item2a2686156f&nma=true&si=Cp9hAJaWDdhR1TFzNDMT2zqoos8%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

I think that any seller who sells unknown poch variants should give full and concise descriptions and back up info (including any saved moc pictures for reference - yes, i know they are rare but if there, they should be used to help if available - i'm done with reading 'bought from a spanish collection with meltmark on the back - £500' with no back up proof)

Wollf's poch guide is awesome and with help from others he has put together a smallish but awesome list with great attention to detail and back up information including moc pics in some cases and is the best online reference thus far

A big to all the guys who have posted up their collections/pics and are willing to share information. As rare as these figures are i feel lots more will come to light in collections as has happened with collectors posting limelights recently

Hopefully Marco will be able to add more pictures and poch info to the thread in the coming weeks/months.

That damn Fett! It's all your fault!!!! :scratch:
Actually, glad some good discussion came from this too... But a POCH (so called/ or not) Fett for $912 (yes the price went up by a $1) is just beyond me???? At least a RR Ledy Fett has a COOL rocket that comes out of him. What does the POCH (so called) have??? A large HK coo and a small melt mark on his pack. Oh the insanity....

Dr Dengar wrote:

Quote :

Probably somewhere in the transition from ESB to ROTJ cards, PBP changed the production process from POCH standard (with a lot of production flaws) to better quality PBP standard. I can imagine that this transition was not done overnight. So can we exclude the possibility, that in the beginning some of the old and new ESB figures (e.g. AT AT commander, CCP, TFP, Luke Hoth) were still produced under POCH standards and put on ROTJ cards? And that later the COOs were removed and these figures were produced according to the PBP way.

In my point of view, your comment is the key.

olisuds wrote:

Steve pointed out a POCH Lando with black neck on Ebay for a great price and this is a great example of the damage this madness is doing. There is/was another POCH Lando black neck on Rebelscum that was a good price too and it was listed with a POCH CCP that looked like any regular Kenner CCP but was going for £400ish. They aren't selling because people are wary of POCHs and all these crazy unsubstantiated claims. There are too many POCH figures about at the moment with no proof coming from Spanish sellers who i can only presume are looking to make a fast € out of nothing.

Hi Oli,
you are right, the last 3 months many figures from spanish collectors have appeared. I am sure you have to be cautious with what you buy -like in other countries- but it doesn't mean that the majority don't know what they are selling.


Regarding how fast I want to make money.... still not worry about that. I just try to get some cash to invest in new figures for my collection. As you kow this is an expensive hobby

I wanted to write something real quick in a serious manner... All joking aside, awhile back, a Spanish collector contacted me... He had a black neck POCH Lando for sale. Something like $600?.?. Anyways, the first thing I did was contact Lee and Wolff. I was informed it was no black neck and I was most likely being taken for a ride. The figure was coming from Spain and I believe because of that, I was supposed to believe it was POCH. Regardless, I declined the offer because of the proof/advice I got from Lee and Wolff. Which brings me to my point here. I honestly can't see spending this sort of money unless it's from trusted sellers. The guys that have done the leg work and posted the facts with proof to back it. As I said before I am a novice in training and I learned a GOOD lesson from my black neck POCH experience, and that is, do your homework and deal with people you trust. I just think of all the buyers out there that see PBP or POCH or From Spain posted in the Ebay for sale heading and just assume it is what the seller is advertising it as. And for crazy money on top of it.
I love the rare variants and respect the guys who have truly done the leg work. And thanks for having my back during that so called POCH Lando black neck situation... I learned my lesson!
-Steve

My apologies to Kenneth. He was also one, with Lee and Wolff, that gave me information regarding the black neck POCH Lando. Again thanks guys for the education and for saving me from getting screwed in that deal : )

ackbar100 wrote:

Dr Dengar wrote:

Quote :

Probably somewhere in the transition from ESB to ROTJ cards, PBP changed the production process from POCH standard (with a lot of production flaws) to better quality PBP standard. I can imagine that this transition was not done overnight. So can we exclude the possibility, that in the beginning some of the old and new ESB figures (e.g. AT AT commander, CCP, TFP, Luke Hoth) were still produced under POCH standards and put on ROTJ cards? And that later the COOs were removed and these figures were produced according to the PBP way.

In my point of view, your comment is the key.

I would like to add -always in a positive way- that we can not believe that one day -like March 1st-, for instance someone in the poch/pbp factory decided to change the whole production chain and the following day -March 2nd- everything was changed including injection plastic system, all materials previously stocked -such as kind of plastics, imported figure parts, figures paint... etc- and the paint dry process. You can not change everything in one day, mainly when we are speaking about early '80 in Spain when still there were many hand made process. It takes you a time to do it meanwhile probably you are changing one production line and you continue producing figures in a second line. You have to think about.

During the process, figures were produced and some of them have different features. For instance, I have a CCP pale face no scar and no pbp type of plastic but with small melt marks on the back that I bought in a street market for 10 euros with clear gray weapon. Yes, pale face, no scar, small melt marks and clear gray weapon. Obviously that guy was not a sw vintage expert so I assume he didn't manipulated the figure. So that I consider this figure as a transition figure and this could affect other figures like Luke Hoth.... figures that had to be produced coinciding at the same period of time when the producing system were changing.

Maybe I am right, maybe not..... but that's my point of view.

Hi All,
I have been reading this thread carefully lately and i think there are loads of wrong thoughts running on it.
I was wrong as many of you about PBP figures and its production until Juan Carlos(Panastur)Told me once:
" PBP And Poch are THE SAME company ALWAYS and FOREVER"
That simple phrase helped me to change my point of view in order to study the Spanish production.So PLEASE stop to say POCH is one thing and PBP is other different!!! Maybe each individual componets of PBP still working on its own factories , so maybe Poch worked on its own factory doing figures and Borras-Palouzie probably still working on its owns factories producing the rest of the PBP items.EDIT PUZZLES and adult table games...
When PBP was created in 1980, the 3 companies worked together!!! sooooooo, the 31 backs already are PBP!( even when the Poch logo still present.The 37/41 are PBP even when Poch logo still present) and what is more important to me 45 back are PBP!!! EVEN when the Poch logo is missing!!!
So i doubt wide too much that after the deleting of Poch logo from the Spanish cards, the Poch factory stop to make the figures!! I think you dont know that EVEN when the logo was erased from the cards
POCH STILL BEING PART OF PBP UNTIL SEPTEMBER 1, 1983!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, can somebody tell ,USING USING THE COMMON SENSE, that PBP couldnt made the latest ESB caracters and packed on 45backs???I am not saying that the figures are exclusive to PBP(becouse its a hard task to proof it) but i am 100% sure that PBP packed Luke Hoth, CCP,AT-AT commander and 4-lom.
IMHO those figures could be done perfectly in the PBP(Poch) factory as the early caracters.Those are just an example to explain my point of view, i think its possible to find those examples with Poch caracteristic of poor quality and different paint squeme, i cant understand why the theory that ONLY the figures packed in the 37/41 , can be POCH!!!!What about the 31 and 45??!!! i am sure some of them must be imported but why not own producction aswel???
NOw, can you please tell me how was the situation on the, IMO, wrong called" Poch variants" two years ago???i will tell you all:
only Han Choccolate panths , DB R Commander,Black neck lando and RS white panths were taken as "REAL POCH"
Variants, what we have now??? ONLY the 37/41 Back are "POCH"!!!! LOL!!! whats next????? ;)What if we found i.e the cantina aliens with different paint squeme and PBP/ESB caracteristics???Is that not possible??? are you 100%sure??C`mon!!!!LOL!!! i am not saying that they really exist, but i ´ll keep my mind oppened for the possiblity of their existence, aswell as the CCP, Luke hoth 4-lom and so...
just my 2 cents...

So there are NO POCH figures ? They are all PBP??

Yes, they are ALL pbp!!!You have figures packed on ESB CARDS and figures packed on ROTJ cards!! And no :Poch figures and PBP figures!!

OK so that simplifies things a little bit. Now are all figures on PBP & POCH cards produced in Spain ? ( some came from mexico? )
I never understood why unpainted figures would be imported ( ie from Hong Kong) & only painted locally.

With 2 factories this would explain why 2 different COOs appear on the same figure.

ps. I'm glad you've joined in this discussion Javi

aussiejames wrote:

OK so that simplifies things a little bit. Now are all figures on PBP & POCH cards produced in Spain ? ( some came from mexico? )
I never understood why unpainted figures would be imported ( ie from Hong Kong) & only painted locally.

With 2 factories this would explain why 2 different COOs appear on the same figure.

ps. I'm glad you've joined in this discussion Javi

No James, you missunderstand me, Poch in their factory made the figures and borras- palouzié made the puzzles , table toys for adults and so.NO TWO Factories makeing figures!!Maybe a small "satelitte " companies produced aslso some figures, as JC(Panastur) said maybe FAMOSA, also inject plastic for PBP...

Many spanish collectors aswell as me, have been focused on buying Spanish lots from non collector people in the last 3 years now, spending a lot of money and effrots just to check each figure...
we have found an huge amount of figures which can be found over and over and over in the spanish market, i mean up to 3 or 4 examples of each figure( If not more examples!!)
What you can see in the picts are PART of my PBP collection which is being using for a project , with figures packed on ESB cards (Poch if you want to say) AND ROTJ cards.
There are loads of slight differences in COOs and paint squemes and there are not too much doubles/spares in there, so just becouse you dont know the existence of some figure, it doesnt means that it doesnt exist or is not a different variant.By my side,I have keept one example of each different figure i found.
By the other hand , I am NOT as "expert" as other PBP/POCH collectors in here and i am not so fool of thinking that every figure i have found in Spain, is an exclusive PBP/ESB variant! BUT i think that the spanish collectors have a wider view than others collectors just to be able to buy more figures NOT LISTED ON EBAY -i.e- ,We are sure that many of those are exclusive and very poorly known, time will tell if we are right OR wrong

Nothing to say after javisw posts. Totally agree.

Awesome backup you have here to support your comments.

Are you seeing much variation with the weapons also? One would assume there must be different ones associated with the the figures being called PBP. Am i right here?
I think it's a good example of a point I was trying to make in another thread on RS about reproductions. Until there is a lot more certainty I think you want to be careful not to dismiss real as reproductions, just because you're not familiar with the variation.
Sorry to sidetrack the thread...just wanted to make that point.
Interesting discussion by the way.

Josh wrote:

Are you seeing much variation with the weapons also? One would assume there must be different ones associated with the the figures being called PBP. Am i right here?
I think it's a good example of a point I was trying to make in another thread on RS about reproductions. Until there is a lot more certainty I think you want to be careful not to dismiss real as reproductions, just because you're not familiar with the variation.
Sorry to sidetrack the thread...just wanted to make that point.
Interesting discussion by the way.

there are not too much exclusive PBP weapons IMO.
The most fakeable PBP weapon could be the CCP ones.

javiswspain wrote:

Hi All,
I have been reading this thread carefully lately and i think there are loads of wrong thoughts running on it.
I was wrong as many of you about PBP figures and its production until Juan Carlos(Panastur)Told me once:
" PBP And Poch are THE SAME company ALWAYS and FOREVER"
That simple phrase helped me to change my point of view in order to study the Spanish production.So PLEASE stop to say POCH is one thing and PBP is other different!!! Maybe each individual componets of PBP still working on its own factories , so maybe Poch worked on its own factory doing figures and Borras-Palouzie probably still working on its owns factories producing the rest of the PBP items.EDIT PUZZLES and adult table games...
When PBP was created in 1980, the 3 companies worked together!!! sooooooo, the 31 backs already are PBP!( even when the Poch logo still present.The 37/41 are PBP even when Poch logo still present) and what is more important to me 45 back are PBP!!! EVEN when the Poch logo is missing!!!
So i doubt wide too much that after the deleting of Poch logo from the Spanish cards, the Poch factory stop to make the figures!! I think you dont know that EVEN when the logo was erased from the cards
POCH STILL BEING PART OF PBP UNTIL SEPTEMBER 1, 1983!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, can somebody tell ,USING USING THE COMMON SENSE, that PBP couldnt made the latest ESB caracters and packed on 45backs???I am not saying that the figures are exclusive to PBP(becouse its a hard task to proof it) but i am 100% sure that PBP packed Luke Hoth, CCP,AT-AT commander and 4-lom.
IMHO those figures could be done perfectly in the PBP(Poch) factory as the early caracters.Those are just an example to explain my point of view, i think its possible to find those examples with Poch caracteristic of poor quality and different paint squeme, i cant understand why the theory that ONLY the figures packed in the 37/41 , can be POCH!!!!What about the 31 and 45??!!! i am sure some of them must be imported but why not own producction aswel???
NOw, can you please tell me how was the situation on the, IMO, wrong called" Poch variants" two years ago???i will tell you all:
only Han Choccolate panths , DB R Commander,Black neck lando and RS white panths were taken as "REAL POCH"
Variants, what we have now??? ONLY the 37/41 Back are "POCH"!!!! LOL!!! whats next????? ;)What if we found i.e the cantina aliens with different paint squeme and PBP/ESB caracteristics???Is that not possible??? are you 100%sure??C`mon!!!!LOL!!! i am not saying that they really exist, but i ´ll keep my mind oppened for the possiblity of their existence, aswell as the CCP, Luke hoth 4-lom and so...
just my 2 cents...

Javi,

Great to see you bringing your expertise into this debate.

So I get your point that effectively POCH and PBP are the same thing as it was only POCH out of POCH Borras Palouzie that was producing the figures and the transition seems a bit of a grey area.

My thoughts are that it might not matter too much if POCH and PBP are the same or different companies. What is more important is the transition from importing to manufacturing or perhaps just the change in manufacturing techniques. It sounds like there is also a grey area of transition here too.

Both these concepts are a little complicated and unclear still. Much like the discussions on Lili Ledy was complicated with Made in Mexico figures, transporting of moulds between countries etc.

The difference is that a lot of work has been done and shared on the classification and identification of Lili Ledy figures. This hasn't been done with PBP/POCH in the same way - or at least it hasnt been shared.

It probably matters very little in the end if PBP/POCH were the same or different companies or whether they imported or manufactured their own figures or changed manufacturing techniques. The thing that matters is that they can be identified with unique characteristics in mould or paint applications. Not melt marks, factory errors or dicolouration. And a lot of spanish sellers are selling these figures without this kind of information. That's why so many collectors outside of Spain are wary and think the whole situation has got a bit ridiculous nd out of hand. When there is some solid evidence of a variant being unique to PBP/POCH there will be more appreciation in collecting them. Until then people are staying clear.

Ackbar100, I didnt mean to single your POCH CCP out because it was just the first example I came across. You may well be certain that your CCP is a genuine POCH. Others don't share that opinion yet and just see a regular Made In Hong Kong CCP with a melt mark. You haven't provided any additional detail of what makes this figure unique to PBP/POCH hence I am sceptical until I hear what characteristics make it PBP/POCH.

Information on how to identify these PBP/POCH variants needs to be shared. Its no use telling us there is a POCH CCP if you can't explain what it is that makes it unique. People wont just take your word for it

Javi, I remember the thread you did with Wolff on the PBP variants and was talking about this with Wolff and Marco a couple of days ago. I think something like this would be good for POCHs too. Against each figure you could mark: Proven, not proven etc and a note on how to distinguish / identify it.

Luis, Javi, Ackbar100, I hope you can stick around in this thread to share your knowledge of Spanish figures and renew peoples faith in PBP/POCH collecting!

Cheers Oli

I'm just confused about the prices on some of these pieces that I've seen other Spanish sellers ask for. It seems since information was discussed between expert collectors like Wolff, JaviSpain, Kenneth, Lee and others here on TIG I have seen new sellers post possible PBP/POCH pieces at astronomical prices. These pieces seem to sell at those prices. In some ways I feel like the information that started on TIG by the experts above in some ways has been taken advantage of by other sellers thinking they can put whatever price they want on it and, no matter if it's PBP/POCH or not they'll get the sale...
JaviSpain, I admire and respect all the research you've done. I also appreciate reading and learning from all the back and forth discussions you guys have had. After looking at JaviSpain's awesome pics it really makes me feel like if you live in Spain and you collect, compare and research you can find these PBP/POCH variants out there for much smaller price tags. So is it all about logistics then?
Example, my Meccano Fett collection. I have had some people say they were impressed with it because they never knew what a Mecc Fett was or that it existed. And I'm not saying they were not hard to find, but if I lived in France I'll guarantee I could find and buy a hundred of them in a year. I live in the United States and I found 10 in 1 year. Not bad, but not that hard either if you know where to look. Again, I'm not saying they are not hard to find. To add to this after I posted endless threads talking about my Meccano Fetts, that plenty of collectors added too. One being Wolff, with GREAT information. I started to notice the prices on these guys started climbing on Ebay France. I even contacted a few sellers and they read the threads posted by me and they changed their price tags from $50 to $300. That's flippen crazy! In some ways my questions, research, photos about the Meccano Fett became my worst enemy.
Can this be the same for all the great research done on TIG for PBP and POCH? Again guys, I appreciate everything that has been documented and researched so please don't think I'm saying that is the problem. I think the problem is those trying to take advantage of what has been written and make some serious cash selling figures that are so called POCH/PBP. It truly makes it hard to trust anyone outside of this circle on TIG. To the point where I don't feel comfortable collecting variants like I used too. That is unfortunate because I am still passionate about this.
-Steve

olisuds wrote:

Ackbar100, I didnt mean to single your POCH CCP out because it was just the first example I came across. You may well be certain that your CCP is a genuine POCH. Others don't share that opinion yet and just see a regular Made In Hong Kong CCP with a melt mark. You haven't provided any additional detail of what makes this figure unique to PBP/POCH hence I am sceptical until I hear what characteristics make it PBP/POCH.

Information on how to identify these PBP/POCH variants needs to be shared. Its no use telling us there is a POCH CCP if you can't explain what it is that makes it unique. People wont just take your word for it

Cheers Oli

Hi Oli ,
I totally understand your point of view -you don't know you don't trust-, I do the same. My profile here is still very low and it is not the same that I sell my figure than "others" do the same. Of course, I could share more information but the last guys that tried to do it were hardly questioned -javitc, infantelo-. It seems that if you have a figure than others don't owned it... then that figure doesn't exist.

I know that many collectors have appeared during the last months -like me- but it doesn't mean we weren't there collecting pbp/poch figures, it only means we didn't want to use this tool to communicate between us. It takes us big effort to write in English -for instance, me-.

Of course, it's more easy to find rare figures to us, we live here and we get figures from street markets, local newspaper advertising and even given to us for free from friends of our childhood. it is more easy to find replacement for a harley in the US than in Spain and nobody speak about that.

Regarding the prices you are right, they are increasing dramaticaly during the last year. It could be because more people is now interested in that kind of figures or maybe because it takes you a lot of time, trips to check local collections to find a CCP in great condition with original weapons... it is not easy, I promise you.


All my text doesn't mean you can buy all figures you were offered from Spain, you have to be cautious, even from people close to you.

To finish, you say in your post: "My thoughts are that it might not matter too much if POCH and PBP are the same or different companies". In my opinion, this is really important because the fact they were the same company show us that the facilities used for the figures production were the same and manipulated for the same stuff.

My goal when I arrived at this forum -like other spanish collectors- was to share my collection and speak about this great hobby but I am afraid it is going to take me time to change my mind and share the rest of my collection. I have to think about.

Ackbar and Javi: great that you chimed in to fuel the discussion with new insights. Please keep sharing!

Javi: I know you are working on an unique PBP project, but it wasn't till today that I realised how big it was. Unreal PBP collecttion!!

Steve: Sharing info about a certain variant might increase interest, demand and thus price (in that order). That is the price you pay for open knowledge share.
On the other hand, I assume that prices for the POCH/PBP line will drop somewhat in the near future to a more realistic price, as more of these figures will appear, and the market will maturate.

javiswspain wrote:

Josh wrote:

Are you seeing much variation with the weapons also? One would assume there must be different ones associated with the the figures being called PBP. Am i right here?
I think it's a good example of a point I was trying to make in another thread on RS about reproductions. Until there is a lot more certainty I think you want to be careful not to dismiss real as reproductions, just because you're not familiar with the variation.
Sorry to sidetrack the thread...just wanted to make that point.
Interesting discussion by the way.

there are not too much exclusive PBP weapons IMO.
The most fakeable PBP weapon could be the CCP ones.

Thanks, Javi.