Very well written Chris.

I'm sure most of us variation collectors are wiling to help identify variations, so don't hesitate send a pm if you want to buy a certain figure, but are in doubt whether is what you hope it is or not. We might not tell how to identify the figure in question, but if you send pictures we can give our opinion, but can't guarantee 100% (or at least I can't).

As late as two days ago, i found what i thought was a Poch variation on eBay (it looked like one from the picture) and with only 1½ left and a friend coming by, there was no time to consult the other variation collectors, so I bed and was the only bidder. I later discussed it with Wolf and he had to disappoint me, that it was not what I thought it was. I did see Kenneth's Poch variation of this particular figure as late as Saturday at the convention in Malmö, and still was fooled by the one in the auction (well now I have to wait for it to arrive, maybe, it's Wolff, who is mistaken this time, although I highly doubt that ).

wbobafett wrote:

1. There is no Chewbacca UNIQUE to PBP cards! If there is a Chewbacca produced in spain and also was exported....thats another and very argued point!

2. POCH never produced SW figures on its own. There is a POCH sign on the early cards, but its already PBP. PBP is the fusion of three toy producers and one of them is POCH!

3. There is so called POCH and PBP areas! They dont go with the printing on the cards!
- In the early production area ALL figures were produced in spain with HK or MIHK coo.
- In the second area only some of these figures were produced in spain, some were imported and just packed (Taiwan, LL).

4. There is a Chewbacca variant unique to POCH cards! If you want to know how it looks you have to wait for my guide! And if this never appears.....wait on a guide from Javi or others!

100% agree with Wolff.

yeah-sus wrote:

pomse2001 wrote:

Hi yeah-sus, I also think you are right about that. Some people just want to get some rare figures for them self and earn big money.

hehe ok i think you missunderstood me

My point is that if a couple of variant collectors find a new variant,they keep it til themselfes until everyone in their group has one or more or like wolf just said"not fun to hunt a variant with a lot of competition"

If there is variantcollectors who put in alot of time and effort for gettin variants to flip i think they should get another job instead, more money to make that way

Sorry if I missunderstood you

I was not talking about anybody on this forum, I also do not know if the people are collectors. But sometimes I see star wars toy that I have never seen before on Ebay to a very expensive price. Then it feels like they know something that I do not know and only to make money.

wbobafett wrote:

- In the early production area ALL figures were produced in spain with HK or MIHK coo.
- In the second area only some of these figures were produced in spain, some were imported and just packed (Taiwan, LL).

Regarding the early production ('POCH') era. Where the accessories (capes, guns, etc.) also produced in Spain?

Why on earth should Wolff continue spending even more of his very limited time to make an updated coo guide for free - not to mention a free Poch / PBP guide for everyone..? To some of you it obviously never has crossed your mind to maybe PAY a little for spectacular guides like that! Guides that has cost Wolff a lot of money in terms of figures and 1000' of hours of his spare time! It's even research at a very high level in my opinion..

Making / creating such a thing as a Poch guide isn't exactly easy!! It's totally "unknown "territory" for the vast majority of these variants! Please keep in mind that until recently only 3 different Poch variants were confirmed: Lando Bespin Black Neck, Rebel Soldier and Han Solo Hoth with Chocolate Brown Pants! Now Wolff has to classify yet another 34 Poch variants - with even a few variants within those..! Not exactly an easy task if you ask me.. :scratch:

Some people really ought to learn to appreciate what Wolff has done for the variant community and be very thankful for that! Wolff, Javier or Carlos etc MIGHT publish a PBP / Poch guide some day, but a project like this takes a long time! As Wolff mentioned, he first needs to have one sample of each Poch variant himself in order to being able to classify it! And prefereble pics of at least 2 other loose samples + a carded one to compare those loose samples too! It's not easy, since a few characters have not survived on Poch cards - Ugnaught and Boba Fett for instance!! On other examples the pics of the Poch cards are very unclear and so on..

Lastly I have to say, that Wolff is probably the last person in here, who would collect variants in order to earn money! He collects variants, because he loves it! So simple is that.. Same reason as most of us collect variants by the way..

Very well said Kenneth_B. I think some of the valuable information available on this site can be taken for granted. People don't always think about, or appreciate the time, effort & expense that some individuals put into research for this hobby. Everyone should be very greatful that the likes of Wolff & Marco are prepared to share their findings with the rest of us.

I love what Marco do on his thread and that we all can write and share information about lili ledy with him. Everything feels very open on that thread and Marco is also great to change and update new information

PBP and POCH is another story. I think and hope that Wolff is doing some great work there. But I can't see the work he is doing. I just miss a thread about PBP and POCH like the Lili Ledy thread where we all can talk about it and share information. I just also want to be part of the PBP and POCH work. I know there is a thread about it here on tig. but there is not much going on in this thread.

About doing it for free, well why do I have my site for free. Because it is my hobby that I want to share for free with you guys. Even as I know that it is expensive and I use many hours nearly every day on it so I can update my new pictures and information to you guys. But also to get new information back from you guys, to make new friends and also to help other collectors.

I also understand from wolff that he has not time to update the coo guide, that is also why I have begun work on my own coo guide. It is free and you don't have to pay for it and it makes me happy just to help others

But as I also understand Wolff is not alone and I also respect if he had made promises to other collectors about keeping this secret until they are finished with the guide.

First of all I also love Marco's frequently updates on the LL thread! Great pics and great info! I have learned a lot about LL figures and accessories from that thread! Marco surely puts a lot of effort and spare time into that thread, which I really respect him for!! But to give Marco all the credit for the information in that thread, is not really fair against Horacio (Ozio) and Wolff, who have done many, many hours and much reserach in order to "deliver" much of the information in that thread! Maybe Marco has too, but surely Horacio is the expert within Lili Ledy, and Wolff is the expert within all variants in general! Without the research from those two guys the LL thread "might" not have been as informative as it is today..

Lars; I like your website too! But how can you compare it to a massive project like Wolff's Poch Guide..?? Do you buy figures or card backs in order to show to the community here? I guess, that you buy them for yourself and then picture them in your website! Which is fine and honourble and surely not made to make profit!

But to make a complete Poch guide with 100 % accurate information about 37 chacacters / variants, where 34 were unknown until recently is a completely different thing! Why?? Because Wolff in general needs to buy maybe 3, 5 or more of each figure from Spain in order to being able to classify them! Far from all figures sold in Spain are PBP or Poch variants, since many were sold on regular Kenner US cards, tri-logo cards etc too! Almost all of the Poch variants are RARE - and some are very rare! Of course Wolff also collects, because he wants a complete Poch set himself, but his project will benifit the variant collectors "big time" too! This is a very expensive project, so in my opinion Wolff could easily charge a little for this guide, once it has been completed! The man has contributed more than most people in this community with free guides and answering "zillions" of more or less relevant variant questions - most of them could be answered, if people learned to use the search function..

Lars I honestly don't see any "new" research or any spectacular undiscovered variants in your website! For my part I wouldn't pay a cent for any of that information! I couldn't care less, if there are A-Wing Pilot's with 0,3 centimeter wider leg stance than other A-Wing Pilot's.. I do however care about 34 totally unknown and spectacular variants produced solely on 31, 37 / 41A and 37 / 41B Poch cards! For my part I would gladly pay for such a Poch guide!

And as I wrote earlier, Wolff might be the last person / variant collector in here, who would make such a guide in order to sell his spare Poch figures at high prices - or to demand even a small amount for the Poch guide for that matter..

Lars I promise you, that when the time is right, you will be able to see 34 + new - and in some cases - sensational Poch variants! The Poch Bossk with the green limbs is maybe the coolest one, but there are certainly other cool Poch variants too!! I'm being a part of Wolff's project too, as you might have guessed! And it has been extremely exciting so far - also very expensive and in some situations I have suffered great dissapointments myself.. But it's a great project, and I also hope for it to be completed as soon as possible! But please don't expect to see a Poch guide from Wolff in 2012 though.. Too much figures are still missing and too much variants still need to be confirmed! Patience is the key word here.. Maybe Javier is more likely to finish his Poch run sooner than Wolfff?? I honestly don't know..?? He certainly has the Poch knowledge too!!

Kenneth, I dont think anybody couldve said it better with your two posts. There are a very limited number of variant collectors here who have actually studied the figures for a long period of time that can actually put on paper what they have discovered. But in this day and age of "I want this and I want it now" attitudes, some just dont want to take the time and effort like Wolff has done over the years. All they see is that a figure is different, so it has to be a variant. 9 out of 10 times, its not. Thats why I wanted to re-launch the FOTW threads so we can try and get some info out there on what is or isnt a variant. The more info we can compile the better the community will be for it. Even if theres some details thats not full disclosed on certain figures, at least it will all be in one place to find. And if Wolff ever did decide to sell his guides, Ill be in line for mine, he already knows that. But then you got those who will always have their hands out looking for info that they can use as their own. Its like, you do the legwork, and Ill take the credit. We already seen that happen here once from a former member and thats fucked up. Ill gladly help out anybody as long as I know its being used respectfully.

Kenneth, thanks for giving me kudos for the Lili Ledy thread, I appreciate that very much. And thanks for pointing out (like I stressed before in the acknowledgements section) that this thread is not a one man’s job.

I want to make very clear here that by nature I am not an expert, but a generalist. The past 15 months I have ‘just’ gathered and combined existing knowledge from different experts like Ozio, Wolff, and Uli, into the different figure entries and complemented this with my own observations. Still unanswered questions were indicated to stimulate discussions to get more conclusive answers. Sometimes discussions between different TIG members in the LL thread brought additional insights which I used to improve the respective figure entries.

I regard the Lili Ledy thread thereby a first class example of a TIG community effort, and it is the community aspect which keeps fulfilling me with joy and motivation to manage this process in the right direction towards a good end.

Marco, youve been doing a great job with it. I can only imagine the time and effort you put into it so far.

Chris_J wrote:

Marco, youve been doing a great job with it. I can only imagine the time and effort you put into it so far.

You really don't want to know, and me neither.

Im just stunned!!

Thank you all for the nice words....especially Kenneth!

I would like to add some little notes. Although I read a lot of stuff in here I would like to comment...my heads just full....LOL


I think we have to thank mostly Rob that he brought Ozio here. I dont know where he "found" my dude Ozio, but he made him join here. I think without Ozio we would have missed a lot of information basically on the weapons. Its just great to have a guy directly in Mexico who can shoot you a picture of several rare stuff immediatly. Who could ever compare so much LL weapaon or figures from one kind at once??? And even better Ozio can meet with Cristian, who is also a huge knowledged LL collector.
Ozio...you are a golden source for the community (and btw a great great friend).

Marco did a huge task gathering all the stuff around. I know myself how endless this all is. I tried several times to put up a guide myself...mostly on the wepaons but you become nuts in a very fast way.

Everyone who ever finsihed a guide or really tried to make one and collapsed or stranded knows what task this is!
You cannot do such tasks alone...you always need help because nobody ever will have every information and every figure loose and carded. There is ups and downs in the progress and the downs can be heavy.

I think Ulis guide was an unbelievable source to PBP. Its a real pitty the community lost him as friend and source and expert.

I also think Javi is working on a PBP/Poch guide for a while now. His effort in detecting the first unknown stuff is amazing. I dont know if he is still working on it. I think he is far ahead of me .
Mirco works more in the background, but he also discovered a lot of Poch stuff....shame he got sidetracked with Trilogo MOCs....LOLOLOL...just kidding Mirco.

Marcos guide is one of a kind! And with the corrections all the time its good to finally see a LL guide which will be (one day...LOL) 100% save. The main issue Marco started this was that all other guides...collection...etc contained partially wrong information. If I only think how long we argued about that stupid Ackbar....unbelievable......LOL.....since decades....seriously....


The project Im working at the moment....well its several as always....but main project is Poch figures. And I have to say: I gave up several times....without Kenneth this wouldnt be possible. Especially in this "high class varaint" collecion area you wont find a guy more unselfish and generous then Kenneth! This project is clearly a Co-work...it will never be "my" guide...its our guide Kenneth!

And talking about guides....I have to tease ROG:
Rog its really unnatural to carry all your wisdom around.....just let it out.....please!!! Im waiting for a guide from you!!

Dr Dengar wrote:

Chris_J wrote:

Marco, youve been doing a great job with it. I can only imagine the time and effort you put into it so far.

You really don't want to know, and me neither.

Well you have it done. I invested zillions of hours on coo 2.0 with varaints and its just unfinished laying aroun on my PC.....thats a real waste of time....

Very well written Wolff and Kenneth.

I have talked about writing a book about collecting loose variations for years, and is still in the research process. Reasons for the delay is also busy at work and my dads health issues since 2007 and untimely death on the 28th of May last year, three days before his 67th birthday. I still hope to write the book, but it will more be a book about collecting loose variations and not a book containing all variations in the world (as Wolff and I agreed upon, that would be an impossible task), but it will contain many variations both Kenner and "foreign". Sure I can't do this alone and will have to consult many of the experts, and don't worry, everyone will get the deserved amount of credits for their contribution, and if the book is ever released and makes a profit, i will honor those, who have helped with it.

wbobafett wrote:

I also think Javi is working on a PBP/Poch guide for a while now. His effort in detecting the first unknown stuff is amazing. I dont know if he is still working on it. I think he is far ahead of me . ....

Hey Wollf, thanks for the kind words but To be honest i dont think i am an expert on POCH figures or far ahead from you dude.I think that you,( Kenneth, MIrco and everyone else who help you ) are doing a great job on the POCH guide.
i am still remember when I realized about the melt marks on back on certain figures founded on Spain, that was the begining of my research two years ago or so and i feel i am still far away to be an expert...
I am still thinking on made my own guide but i literaly have no time to do it.In the Meanwhile i am still searching and buying A LOT of childhoods collections to be sure that the info i will provide (if this ever happend ) will be correct and appropiate.

Please keep doing such a great job on your guide and let me know if you need any, maybe i could help you...
thanks
J.

Who would think a Chewbacca thread would head this way. But I like where this has headed.
I am as most here extremely greatful for all the help I have gotten and that this forum is as friendly as it is. What got me sign up here at first was the repro guide on imperialgunnery.com, but the coo thread and ledy thread have helped me loads.

I have learned a lot of stuff I would not know anything about without you guys and I know how much work you have put into it.
I am not sure who is who, and who have done what but I would like to say thanks.
The information you have shared made me interested in variations. I am so looking forward for the upcoming pbp guides and I would pay for them, though I also see the benefit of having it open, like the Ledy thread.

Thanks again

About The Lili Ledy thread I do not give Marco all the credit. I give him the credit for making a thread where we all can be part of the thread. Everybody who are writing in that thread should also get the credit. Also new informtion is coming up all the time on the lili ledy thread. Because we all share the information and talk about it. SO thanks again for this all of you

But PBP and POCH, I can't never understand why everything should be so secret. If we had a open thread where we all could talk PBP and POCH like the Lili Ledy thread then we could all share information and learn a little more. We could also all be part of the search and like the lili ledy thread many more variants can show up. That maybe wolff and co. have not found and will not find without the help from us.

If I find something new that I have not seen before then I share it. I do not wait years before sharing it with others. But that is just maybe me and maybe I am stupid etc. etc. but I also know that some people have left this forum and are not coming back because of the PBP/POCH is so secret and that hurts when some of my new friends is leaving because of that.

I do not know how much time wolff use on PBP and POCH, but I use many hours nearly every day and I have had this site since 2005. But this is not about for me about how many hours and how many years. This about sharing and talk about together, that is also what a forum is for.

Sorry but I do not think there will be a 100% accurate guide for PBP/POCH or anybody other guides. New information do come up all the time, so in 10 years we will still find new stuff about PBP and POCH so come out of the closet.

Sorry Kenneth but all people do not know as much as you do. So some of the information I have on my site is new for some people. People are writing to me and say thanks we did not knew that and that makes me happy. My site is not only for PRO it is for all and there is always a beginner who can get a pretty good start with my guide. I also want to have all PBP and POCH figures and if I had them you would have told me it is very cool and thanks for all the information. But I can't give what I do not have. So if the PBP/POCH was not that secret then I would also have had this kind of information and you would have found it on my site. But thanks for the kind words

Well I should not stop you for paying wolff, kenneth you are welcome to give wolff all your money. I just say I will not pay for it. I don't think a guide on a forum is something people should pay for. We are all collectors and I hope we all joined this forum to talk, have fun and share information. I don't hope we get so far out so we end up selling information to each other.

I have never said that wolff are selling and earning money on figures. I said that some on EBAY are selling and earning big money on some star wars things that I have not seen before and that is maybe because they are keeping the information for them self.

Sure and yes I would be happy to see the guide when it is ready, but I still and can't understand why we all can't be part of it. If it had not been for the lili ledy thread then I would not have known that I have had Lili Ledy figures for years without knowing it.

Hes not talking about a guide on a forum. Wolff was actually thinking of doing a guide "book" at one time. Hes even mentioned it in the past here on that and the COO guides.

And the reason why somethings are kept secret is the reasons that was given already. SOMETHINGS DONT NEED TO BE MADE PUBLIC. Sure it will help other collectors out, but why publish something when all you got is ideas and theories like has been going on here for the past 5-6 months? Theories get you no where fast in this hobby. I could tell you I have a figure thats different from any others I seen and my theory is it was made in East Endor of Guam. That dont mean squat, unless you got something to back it up. Alot of times I feel like this. trying to explain things anymore. Some understand the importance of holding onto info until you researched it enough to be able to go public with it, and then theres some who just like to hear the sound of their own voices who just throw anything and everything out there and have people scratching their heads trying to figure it all out. Honestly, you answered your own question.

Quote :

I said that some on EBAY are selling and earning big money on some star wars things that I have not seen before and that is maybe because they are keeping the information for them self.

Right there is why some info doesnt need to be made public. Its nothing for a top knotch customiser to be able to make the next PBP ultra, mega rare figure and slap it up on Ebay with piss poor pix and sell it for hundreds. If the info was out there for them to find, they could have a field day with it and make thousands with it. Is that what you want to happen with your line of thinking? Looks like it to me

just to add:

discussing it in public with guys like you Pomse.....Im sorry....but this is ridiculous! Seriously....you will never ever be able help me out in any way! Believe me......Im lightyears away from you!

I know enough people who could really bring some light into this or help me out!.....you know...some real experts...not just kids guessing around!

And dont worry...I wouldnt sell any guide of me to you anyway!

Oh wolff, you could do better than that. This is kindergarten stuff.

As the kid in the kindergarten told the the other kid I am lightyears away from you and I have more star wars than you. The other kid then said may I come home and see it and play with it.
Then the first kid said, no you may not you may not see what I have before in many years.

If it was not for the Lili Ledy thread I would not know anything about lili ledy and I would proberbly have sold my lili ledy items without knowing they were lili ledy. I was lucky than some people have sold me lili ledy years ago and they did not know what they was selling and did not know what I was buying. So thanks to the lili ledy thread I found those figures in my collection.

The same have happen with PBP, some people have been nice to tell me I have PBP figures, if it was not for them then I would maybe have sold them because I did not know they were PBP.

A year ago I did not even collect variants because I did not knew nearly anything about variants, so again thanks to the guys who are not affraid to share information.

Sorry wolff but I will not use my time or energy on this thread anymore because we can talk about this for years without getting nowhere.

Speaking from experience! Everyone needs to appreciate & understand that when you're conducting original research it is standard practice to only discuss ideas with a small number of suitably qualified individuals. It can also be very hard to reach a point where you're happy to release the results.
I know that there is a great deal of interest in Wolffs work, but in the end it is his choice as to when, or indeed if, he makes his findings public. The same goes for anybody else involved in this, or other projects.
Once the foundations have been laid, I am sure that Wolff & his collaborators will welcome valid contributions from the wider community. Until then, please be patient!
I wrote a scientific paper over a decade ago which has only been read by three other subject speciallists. Will I submit it for publication? Who knows? All I can say is that I certainly would'nt appreciate being badgered about it.

You dont get it Pomse...do you???

You are dangerous! You and your "twin brothers in mind" can not decide between a Paploo or a turd formed like Paploo.

Public information got seriously hidden because of guys like you who can not handle any valuable information! You dont listen, you cannot read stuff and it seems you can not even get one sentence right if it comes to information!

People like you are the ones that sell wrong labled stuff on ebay.....you are what you hate! Dont you see this???


You are always talking about the LL guide and its information so why dont you use the information. This place is not a Pomse exclusive butler shop! And if it comes to me: "We dont serve your kind here anymore"....end of story!

I helped you a lot of times but you just dont get information that is given to you!

Well for my part I'm on my way out of collection star wars so the Spanish variants are not so hot for me. But I want to add a few words anyway.
First I think it's great that someone want to collect so many information and use some much time on gathering information’s on the Spanish star wars sold back in the day. I really hope you guys get a full set of the variants.
But I can't believe that you won't help fellow collectors that are newbie’s collection the Spanish variants. Using argument that the other collectors don’t have enough knowleage to help the other is TOTALLY out of line. Remember that you yourselves at one point where newbie’s.
Furthermore remember that people asking question like Lars does is because he thinks the variants are hot and that he want to know more about them.
And last who can you sell the book to if you scare of all the newbie’s?

Wow doesn't look like this thread is going to end well!

For what its worth I'd like to try and sum up a few thoughts. And I'm not naming any names because these are just general thoughts that relate to a lot of threads posted recently.

I think it's great that various members here are trying to tidy up the boards by encouraging members to use the search facility and post queries in the FOTW threads. It's disappointing when members ignore or don't listen to the advice given by experienced collectors. Having said that there will always be people that don't listen or ask seemingly silly questions. But is it not easier to ignore thosef threads and move on rather than offending someone.

I am very grateful to all the members who have shared their knowledge with me whether it be in the form of guides or information threads or just through chatting on email or PM. Whether they have done it for their own enjoyment or for the benefit of the community I appreciate the great deal of work that they have put into the research. I also understand the desire to keep new variants quiet until you have one yourself or until you have researched it properly. I personally prefer to share whatever knowledge I have, but maybe that's easy to say when you don't have much to share However if you choose not to share that information you should be fully understanding of other asking questions on unclear areas of collecting.

There are many types of collectors on these boards: Some experienced, some new, some who pick things up quickly, some who pick things up slowly, some who don't listen, some who don't think, some who read everything, some who are just casual browsers. From my experience there are very few that are intentionally malicious. I like to treat everyone equally and be as tolerant as I can. That way the place is a lot more enjoyable.

Guys can't one variant discussion end on a positive note?