The Admiral wrote:

Yah but Jasons AFA Silver Belt Ledy kinda upsets that logic James, interesting tho you say the Ledy body is darker (obviously hard to tell on some).

llseeker has mentioned before that Ledy can have a silver belt ( I still doubt this ), as useful as AFA can be they do make mistakes & Ledy eyes are darker (not the body)
I thought Zuckuss was going to be an 'easy' LL figure to identify

We know Ledy didnt have much quality control so any paint seems to be used at times or perhaps night shift workers couldnt tell it was the wrong paint or they simply ran out and used any available, i think we need to look at the COO Scars again, i have 2 Ledy Zuckus's and both have exactly the same scar with some bits of text still visible, does the China have this? Do other Ledys all have this? (i know that can change with mould wear/moulds not being cleaned etc but just to build a picture).

My 2 Ledy Zuckus COO Scars ...


With the China being a close match to the Silver Belt Ledy we need to find anything that can show - this is Ledy, if not then its down to some paint differences.

Let me summarize a bit cause I think there is a risk we are losing the big picture here.

First we came up with our little Zuckuss theory which is as follows: There are two types of Zuckuss figures having the big circles on the heel. They differ in paint application as follows:
* China Zuckuss (from a Made in China baggie): shiny silver belt, bright red nose.
* Ledy Zuckuss: dull silver belt (call it grey if you like), dark red nose.

Don't pay attention to the dents on the legs (as I did first) cause it appeared this is not a distinctive Ledy trait at all. From Bill’s pics we learned that also the China Zuckuss can have these dents. Also forget about the eyes (matt or glossy). It is a tricky thing, I mean based upon experiences with other figures they can probably be glossy and matt within the Ledy line (think about Madine's boots, or Prune Face eye patch, they can be glossy and matt for Ledy figures). So the eyes are probably not a distinctive trait either.

So let’s just focus on the belt (shiny silver or dull silver) and the nose (bright red and deep red).

What we have to do now is to verify our little theory by checking pics of Ledy Zuckuss MOCs. Any Ledy MOC with the dull silver belt figure will be supporting evidence for our theory. The more MOCs the better, as it will strengthen the theory. However you need only one MOC with a shiny silver belt figure to throw our theory to the garbage bin.
In that case, so in case the theory is WRONG, it would mean that the Ledy factory apparently produced both the dull and shiny silver belt variants, and you can therefore say there is a Ledy version looking identical to the China Zuckuss. Only if that is the case I would try to look for very small molding differences, as the paint differences cannot make the distinction any more.

First things first. First proof the theory right or wrong. I kindly requested Ozio, Carlos, Christian, and Alfonso to provide us pictures of Zuckuss MOCs, either from their own collections or via their networks.

I hope to get some input from our Mexican TIG members soon, as we need it badly here.

Jasons Ledy AFA Zuckus already meets this criteria hence the request to see some "Scars", i would like to see the Scar on the AFA Ledy Zuckus in detail (if possible Jason?), just to see if its the same as some known Ledys. Of course carded examples would do the job nicely and i hope some peeps can help in that department

Here are 3 Lili Ledy AFA 85 Zuckuss Examples

Example #1


Example #2


Example #3

This MOC looks to have the darker gray belt.

Do your 3 Zuckus share the same COO Scar Jason?

The carded one here looks to have the grey belt yet the loose figure displayed as Ledy definately has the Silver Belt ...
(same photo as yours Bill i think)...

http://www.spnet.ne.jp/~swcoll/06other/04lililedy/figures/zuckuss.htm

This one looks to have a very similar scar and is stated as Ledy ...
http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2225509590068165688rHPEmc

Silver Belt smooth looking Scar?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320629086610

Looks like the Silver belt one to me ...
http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=60114

Also - can peeps check their COO Scars for me please or compare them to my 2?

I would just like to know what it is AFA use to determine a Silver Belt as a Ledy.

It is difficult to see the COO with the casing set the way it is behind the leg. I will try to take a closer look and let you know.

Dr Dengar wrote:

First we came up with our little Zuckuss theory which is as follows: There are two types of Zuckuss figures having the big circles on the heel. They differ in paint application as follows:
* China Zuckuss (from a Made in China baggie): shiny silver belt, bright red nose.
* Ledy Zuckuss: dull silver belt (call it grey if you like), dark red nose.

….

First things first. First proof the theory right or wrong. I kindly requested Ozio, Carlos, Christian, and Alfonso to provide us pictures of Zuckuss MOCs, either from their own collections or via their networks.

What becomes apparent from this thread is that there is quite some discussion about the silver belt Zuckuss figure: exclusive China figure or also Ledy?

Personally I doubt Ledy used a second paint scheme for Zuckuss which exactly matches a Kenner (made in China) version. That would be a one of a kind figure, as far as I know all other Ledy figures at least have minor paint differences compared to their Kenner counterparts. But still, let’s be open-minded and consider it a possibility, till solid evidence proofs us otherwise.
As such pics of loose silver belt Zuckuss figures which are labeled Ledy are not solid evidence imo. How sure can we be that other collectors/ebay sellers were able to correctly identify a silver belt Zukcuss as Ledy? Based upon what information? Off course we can not exclude they have some essential information we are still lacking in this thread.
On the other hand if evidende proofs there is no silver belt Ledy Zuckuss, I won’t blame anybody (including AFA) for wrongly labeling a silver belt Zuckuss. This bad ass is just a very tough figure to indentify, and it is a good thing he gets so much attention from us in this thread.

Let’s wait for solid evidence now: MOC pics or U-graded items (forgive me using the U-word).
The card Bill posted looks like a grey/dull silver belt to me. The card on SWCA also BTW.

How about this pic.




Link for a better view

http://www.flickr.com/photos/coffin_joe/4152491282/

Not sure who it belongs to or if it has been in this thread already.

That's a new MOC pic Jason. Thanks for finding and posting!

I think we have 3 in total now (Bill and I posted the same MOC from the Japanese collector ).

No. 1



No. 2


No. 3



Kenner (just for comparison)


Question: silver belt or grey belt? Comparing with the silver belt figure from the Kenner card, I would say:

1. grey
   
2. grey
   
3. grey (difficult to say, because the flash light makes everything more shiny)

What do you think?

Let's look for more pics.

Ok dude's here are some pic's of my three zuckuss.
Ledy grey belt on left then silver belt V1,silver belt V2

Here is a close up pic of the Ledy grey belt coo

Here is a pic of silver belt coo V1

Here is a pic of silver belt coo V2

The Ledy coo actually look's like Rob's coo kinda worn,rubbed/rough looking especially the c symbol.I know from my pic's they all look alike,well i suck at close up pic's,but it does look like rob's ledy grey belt version.
The other two with silver belt's have a more defined coo with straight and tight crisp line's like molded from kenner.
The Grey belt version is more Ledyish lookin with the sloppy/rough mold coo,sticky paint.just thing's you can kinda pick up after handling quite a few Ledy's you kinda get a feel for em,i'm just sayin.
I do have to say though i bought all three of these Zuckuss from seller's in Mexico.I know when i finally got the grey belt version i was very happy, to me is real Ledy.
I'd luv to see a moc silver belt,there are quite a few of collector's here on TIG from sweet Mexico whith some awesome stuff,if they could join in on this discussion would be awseome,it would be a great ice breaker to c'mon down and shoot the breeze.get involved make a difference.
Well that's all i gotta say on that.

Marco to answer your question about the three MOC Ledy zuckuss.They look like grey belt to me.anybody else?

Hi TIG bro's.
I just took some more pic's of the Ledy Zuckuss and the silver belt ones.
The grey belt ledy is on the right in all 4 pic's.
What i think i might of found is the Ledy tell?Check out the feet.On the Ledy grey belt Zuckuss on the right has a melted foot defect in the left heel.
The silver belt Zuckuss have perfect feet even there round mold indent on there heel's are perfect my grey belt version has not so perfect round circle's on it's heel's .
Everyone check your grey belt version Zuckuss and look at your silver belt Zuckuss do they look like these do?

From Dans report i think its safe to say none of the Silver ones Dan has are Ledy unless they used a different mould, if that were the case we would see more of them.
Unless someone brings proof - we have to deny a Silver belt being a Ledy, which means Jasons has been wrongly graded, which makes the true Ledy Zuckus that little bit easier to identify ...
his distinctive symbol is now unique to him only.



Do prove me wrong someone

The Admiral wrote:

Do prove me wrong someone

OK, let's try!!

The Admiral wrote:

From Dans report i think its safe to say none of the Silver ones Dan has are Ledy unless they used a different mould, if that were the case we would see more of them.

I like your persistent research on small molding differences between the silver and grey belt figures, but you lost me now, can you please explain what exact differences we are talking about?

• Heels: silver belt figures have complete heel circles whereas the grey belt figures have deformed heel circles?
  
• Comment: the deformed heel circle in Dan's grey belt figure is probably a small batch to batch variation/factory error which slipped through Ledy’s quality control. The two grey belt Zuckuss figures below have completely round heel circles.
  
• Conclusion Statement: heel circles can not be used to distinguish silver and grey belt figures.

Zuckuss: Silver belt (left), Grey belt (middle and right).

• -symbol: The silver belt figure has a clearer, more pronounced compared to the grey belt figure?
  
• Comment: One of the two grey belt figures below indeed has a less pronounced . But wait, the other one has a exactly like the silver belt version. Probably the less detailed symbol, might be an artifact during production while removing the figures from their molding as we have seen before in this thread for Yoda and Gamorrean Guard (page 10).
  
• Conclusion Statement: -symbols can also not be used to distinguish silver and grey belt figures.

Zuckuss COO: Silver belt: clear -symbol.


Zuckuss COO: Grey belt (figure 1): clear -symbol.


Zuckuss COO: Grey belt (figure 2): less clear -symbol.

The Admiral wrote:

Unless someone brings proof - we have to deny a Silver belt being a Ledy, which means Jasons has been wrongly graded, which makes the true Ledy Zuckus that little bit easier to identify ...
his distinctive symbol is now unique to him only.

I also tend to belief that the grey belt Zuckuss is Ledy indeed and the silver belt is not, though based upon completely different arguments: MOC pictures instead of (inconsistent?) molding differences.

Just my 5 cents.

..and still waiting for more MOC pics.

EDIT: Changed 'conclusion' into 'statement' as it is too early to draw solid conclusions based upon just my two grey belt figures.

I think youll find that Zuckus's © is consistent enough to help with his ID, sure youll get some mould differences now and then but that can be said with any part of any figure, the Ledy one is different to the 2 others, yes its small detail but its there and should be taken into consideration as a key identifier that can aid in times of doubt.

Dans already stated his matches mine, my 2 are both identical, ive asked for more pix but unfortunately not many are posting.
Dont be so hasty to write this off, your conclusion has assumed what you have found with some other figures will apply to all.

A simple test will do in any case - can 10 people with the Ledy grey belt please post a macro shot of their Ledy Zuckus © symbol for comparison tests?

Silver Belt...
No carded version seems to exist (yet), and we would see a lot more silver belt ones if indeed Ledy had made them - this is how i see the silver belt version.


I just wish more people would get involved with this thread and be more forthcoming.

The Admiral wrote:

Dans already stated his matches mine, my 2 are both identical, ive asked for more pix but unfortunately not many are posting.
Dont be so hasty to write this off, your conclusion has assumed what you have found with some other figures will apply to all.

A simple test will do in any case - can 10 people with the Ledy grey belt please post a macro shot of their Ledy Zuckus symbol for comparison tests?

You are right there Rob! Based upon two observations it is too early to draw solid conclusions. The better word should be should be ‘statement’ instead of ‘conclusion’. I changed my post accordingly. Let's test the statement by running more tests. So to everyone: send your pics of COOs of grey belt Zuckuss figures.

The Admiral wrote:

I just wish more people would get involved with this thread and be more forthcoming.

Totally agree

less defined 'C' Ledy

vs China

I found another pic of a Ledy Zuckuss MOC on a Mexican site.

So we have 4 MOCs in total now (scroll up to see the other three).

No. 4


Kenner (just for comparison)



Question: silver belt or grey belt?

MOC no. 1: silver / grey belt
MOC no. 2: silver / grey belt
MOC no. 3: silver / grey belt? (difficult to see beacuse of the flash light)
MOC no. 4: silver / grey belt? (difficult to see beacuse of the flash light)



I just got a PM: more support from Mexico is on its way.

I'm late to the Zuckuss party but here are some old comparision pictures:







China coo close up:


LL coo close up:


The coo "left overs" of my LL Zuckuss has some more parts of the letters left (compared to the China version). I always thought this is how to identify a reall LL figure (combined with the darker painted belt and the different red "nose").

Uli

I tried to draw attention to the COO Scar in an earlier post but lack of responces/pix forced me to the © symbol difference...

Again ... Lili Ledy Zuckus COO Scar from 2 different Ledy Figures.


We need more people helping in this thread, come on guys - any help is better than none.

Hm - looks like my LL coo area.

I have a second LL Zuckuss in a box I could check out (if needed) - unfortunately no other China figure (with circles) to check against...

Uli

Dr Dengar wrote:

I took a very close look at my two Zuckuss figures this morning. One has the shiny silver belt (and bright red nose, glossy blue eyes), the other has the dull silver ("grey") belt (and deep red nose and matt blue eyes). First of all I noticed that there is actually no difference in the colour of the head, limbs and body, so I will change that in his entry on page 1. There is also no significant difference in the COO: the datestamp (right leg) and the partly erased "Made in Hong Kong" (left leg) all look the same to me. Yes when looking with a magnifier glass you can argue that the ‘’remainings’’ of the "Made in Hong Kong" text might differ a tiny bit, but come on we don't want to identify Ledy figures with a microscope, do we?

The Admiral wrote:

I tried to draw attention to the COO Scar in an earlier post but lack of responces/pix forced me to the symbol difference...

You were very right Rob, it appears the devil is in the detail. Like the belt and the nose, the COO scar is also characteristic for the Ledy Zuckuss. I wrote this off a bit too soon. I owe you a beer next time when you are in Holland. Same for Uli, thanks for posting those pics!!

I took pics of the COO scar of my Made in China and Ledy Zuckuss figures. There are many small differences but most easy to see is that the "G" of "MADE IN HONG KONG" is still partly present (upper part [arc] of the ""G" visible) in the Ledy figure whereas it is almost absent in the Kenner figure. In contrast the "M" is still partly present in both brands (upper part [two dots] of the ""M" visible).

The COO scars of my two Ledy Zuckuss figures seem to be consistent with those posted before by Rob and Uli (scroll up a bit).





Follow-up:
- Bill: Is the COO scar of your silver belt Zuckuss (from the made in China baggie) like the grey or silver belt Zuckuss, as seen in the pic above?
- Jason: Same question for your graded silver belt Zuckuss.

You can keep the beers Marco, a Coffee shop tour sounds good tho