rayesq wrote:

3) if China did produce unlicensed figures with unlawfully obtained molds that were altered (which admittedly may not be the case), why would you think they would not print unlicensed cardbacks as well?

Is anyone in here a certified AFA grader?

There are 1 or 2 people from AFA, that are members here.  But don't post very often.

The research has already been done by members here and the other Forums, with regards to the companies that Kenner had produce figures for them.  The problem is some of those threads are buried in a mountain of other threads.  Companies like Kader Industrial Company Limited had several factories producing toys in 1977 Hong Kong for Kenner.  On the back of the ESB & ROTJ card backs, there is, hidden amongst all the info is a little letter or series of letters.  This is the factory code that produced that particular figure.  For example "K", "HG", "TJ", etc...  This was to identify which factory the figure came from, for quality control purposes.  If there was a problem, Kenner knew where the problem was originating from.

Like Cantina Patron already said.  Hong Kong was under British rule in 1977 and talks were already under way with China, for transfer of power back to China rule.  Most of the companies also had factories on main land China.  When the problems started to arise with the transfer.  The companies simply moved the production to a different factory and modified the COO stamp. It was the same companies, but simply a different location.

rayesq wrote:

For a discussion community, you guys sure seem in an awful hurry to put an end to this thread.

-despite having requested an apology from fearless leader chicken for being a complete jerk and having not seen one yet; why the hell didn't you just provide pictures of AFA graded figures to begin with?; THAT is a well known group of experts

-no offense but why should newcomers to these discussion boards be expected to know or believe that this group (presumably of eBay sellers) and further be expected to just take you guys at your word

-you guys really should be willing to discuss things instead of just telling people to believe you because you're a self-proclaimed expert; or to provide some credentials as to your expertise

1) chicken/james never KINDLY pointed out anything

2) I have had to practically badger chicken into providing any real information whatsoever

3) if China did produce unlicensed figures with unlawfully obtained molds that were altered (which admittedly may not be the case), why would you think they would not print unlicensed cardbacks as well?

4) I don't understand why you guys, as a well-respected community of experts in the field of Star Wars toys, can't you get eBay to remove that article?  Would you like me to try to help in my capacity as an attorney? If so, I would like to compile as much proof as possible.  

Is anyone in here a certified AFA grader?

You are a real piece of work - a douchebag right up to the end

I don't owe you a apology or anything else to a guy that doesn't know his own ass from a hole in the ground . You never started a polite conversation with me - you made a bold accusation that all China coo figures are fake and that I am selling fake China figures . It wasn't a question asking for more info - you were making a statement based on a fictional ebay article .

I brought you here so that you could get the information you wanted from seasoned collectors (Btw - I am one of very few ebay sellers on this board) . You act as if we are obligated to prove something we already know to be true to you . You had to badger me to give you answers ? But even after all the links and info everyone has provided it still isn't enough for you , why do you feel so entitled to even more ?

Your a sad , pathetic little man


The really awful part of this is that , believe it or not , I am generally a very respectful , fun loving guy that will go out of my way to help anyone . I love to try and help new collectors by sending them here to read real , honest research . I treat everyone with respect until they disrespect me and then the gloves will come off . You showed no respect to me from the start , why do you feel so entitled to respect ?

I really can't waste another day of my life arguing with a brick wall - your obviously beyond help ...

Not really responding to anything else here, just wanted to add to the post that Clint linked to show the reproduction figures that have been made. In the last Year or so Alibaba which is a wholesale website has put up on their site that they will reproduce figures. If you look them up you can see the pictures of the reproduction figures have Hong Kong Coo markings for the most part. These are reproduction figures that are being made in China in current day. These were not made prior to about a year or two ago and they don't apply to the China COO figures, just pointing out that reproductions of vintage items are being made in modern times. As of yet no one I know or that is on either this site or rebelscum has actually gotten one due to having to order a batch lot of two or three thousand units. From the pictures they have on the site it appears that they have taken pictures of actual produced kenner figures and not their own products.

Here is a link showing some search results from alibaba: http://offer.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=vintage+star+wars

Some are described as being made of resin and others made from PVC, and others don't say. Both resin and PVC will feel very different and have different quality to them than the vintage figures. Also since these are going to be made from a cast of a vintage figure they will be slightly smaller due to shrinkage and the features will not be as prominent.

rayesq wrote:

For a discussion community, you guys sure seem in an awful hurry to put an end to this thread.

-despite having requested an apology from fearless leader chicken for being a complete jerk and having not seen one yet; why the hell didn't you just provide pictures of AFA graded figures to begin with?; THAT is a well known group of experts

-no offense but why should newcomers to these discussion boards be expected to know or believe that this group (presumably of eBay sellers) and further be expected to just take you guys at your word

-you guys really should be willing to discuss things instead of just telling people to believe you because you're a self-proclaimed expert; or to provide some credentials as to your expertise

1) chicken/james never KINDLY pointed out anything

2) I have had to practically badger chicken into providing any real information whatsoever

3) if China did produce unlicensed figures with unlawfully obtained molds that were altered (which admittedly may not be the case), why would you think they would not print unlicensed cardbacks as well?

4) I don't understand why you guys, as a well-respected community of experts in the field of Star Wars toys, can't you get eBay to remove that article?  Would you like me to try to help in my capacity as an attorney? If so, I would like to compile as much proof as possible.  

Is anyone in here a certified AFA grader?

I dont see people trying to end the thread.just answering your questions over and over.

If you are a lawyer,you might be used to people apologising when you think they should.but in the real world people generally only do so when they feel they should.if you feel afa are THE experts in star wars toys,why dont you ask them about chinese produced vintage star wars toys.then maybe you will listen.

No offence taken my good man.i dont think anybody expects newcomers to know things.but if your not interested in the replys,why ask in the first place.i think most people who buy on ebay have sold on ebay.i wouldnt consider myself and ebay seller.but i have sold on ebay.does this dismiss everything i have learned over the last 38 years or so?

I dont think any educational institution offer diplomas in star wars collecting.so its a bit unfair to ask anybody to provide such documents before answering any questions on the subject.

1) i cant speak for jason,but i could see in his ebay message reply to you that he did indeed point out that factories in china produced toys for kenner.

2) in my opinion you were told the answer to your question many many times,by several people.i guess your mom has parental controls on your computer,thats why you are unable to look for the information yourself.but if you had structured your question a bit better.maybe everybody would have understood that you would believe anything anybody said,unless they took time out of their day to show you evidence that you might agree with.

3) of course if china or any other country or company made bootleg unlicensed figures,then without a doubt they could make cardbacks aswell.are you suggesting that back in the late 70s/early 80s that some owner of a factory in china,hired some agents to steal and smuggle the original molds over the boader to china.then they changed to coo mark to say china(i mean they wouldnt want to break international law and leave the hong kong coo on them) then make copies of the hong kong cardbacks and change the coo on those also.then smuggle them back across the boarder to hong kong and add them sparingly to the boxes of figures shipped from hong kong to the rest of the world to be sold in the shops.seems a little hard to believe to be honest.

4) unfortunately i and i think most others on the forum dont have sway with ebay and are unable to tell them what and what not to do.so if they wish to have an incorrect warning written by a brainless moron who wants to think hes important,then rhat is their right to do so.
If you feel you have sway with ebay.please feel free to tell them to remove it.you might wish to use the links that jason helpfully provided.

Daren

rayesq wrote:

Oh, and having seen SOOOOO MANY fake coins from China in the coin collecting industry is the reason for the deep rooted scepticism here.

Which also should be a eye opener for you - are all those fake coins stamped "Made In China" so that they are easily recognized as forgeries ?

Wow! So eBay (the forum I presume many of you use to buy and sell SW stuff), has an article on spotting fakes that you say is blatantly false, and you get your panties in a wad when someone cites it instead of taking legal steps to have it removed. Then when an attorney asks for as much proof is possible to confront eBay about it on your behalf, you continue to brate him for continuing to believe the article. That's just asinine.

Obviously I thought I knew what I was talking about when I sent the original message. You guys have made me question it, even though most of what I have been provided are bare assertions labeled as research (except for the graded carded examples chicken gave).

Ok, I will concede that my initial message to chicken was an accusation, but I did it in private first and didn't curse anyone. The first thing he did was tell me to come to these public forums and then simply start slinging cursewords and name-calling.

I am sorry for chicken that he has such an inferiority complex that he feels the need to scream and yell like a little girl throwing a tantrum when someone accuses him of something instead of simply addressing the issue. (He could have sent me a link to the carded examples in the first place.)

You say I didn't approach chicken in a polite manner and ask for information when I first messaged. Is that how you approach people you think are selling fakes? I sure hope not.

I bought a bunch of figures from a guy about a year ago. When the figures arrived almost all the weapons were Repro according to TIG. He gave me a refund and relisted them. I thought that was garbage and didn't want other people to get ripped off so I gave him bad reviews despite the refund. He got upset and claimed that the new buyers were perfectly happy with their items. That just means that he duped a bunch of people. I would like to think that if you guys represent the Star Wars collecting community, you would try to take a hard stance against people selling fakes. But I guess you would rather go ask them for their advice based on what chicken thinks I should have done when I thought he was selling fakes.
___________________________

I QUOTE:
1) "My advice: shake hands with James, and while happily collecting, keep on reading about the hobby, be active on forums. There are a lot of good people out there who can help you."
2) "How many people do you need to tell you the guy wrote a bad article with misinformation before you get it."
3) "Your persistent , I'll give you that"
4) "Members have posted in this thread providing your lots of information and resources to proof that China COO figures are indeed vintage.
Basically answering your question, and the reason you started this thread."
5) "Well, I think enough proof have been provided in the various links that vintage Star Wars items were produced in China. Figures in baggies, figures on cards,..."
6) "I hope that you can see reason & accept what we are trying to tell you."
7) "I think this is going to be my last response to you. I have been civil and upfront with you and attempted to show you the factual information."

AND THENI GET, "I dont see people trying to end the thread.just answering your questions over and over." WHAT???
_________________________


PS No the fake Chinese coins I'm referring to are not stamped Made in China. Lol. They are mass produced copies of valuable American coins. You could really do some valuable things with this community if you weren't so wrapped up in trying to make people that might disagree with you look stupid.

Actually the people you seem to think are being aggresive towards,do a lot for the community.if you took time to read old posts,you would see what people are like when not accused of something that they havent done.
At least you can believe now that china did indeed produce licensed toys for kenner.so maybe now you can understand why everybody else feels maybe you should the one saying sorry to jason.unless you feel your posts werent inflametry.

Daren

Thank You Darin

I believe you are referring to me but I'm James


After the display you have put on Mr. Attorney , I doubt any of us will be seeking your legal help or advice . More power to you though if you can get those idiots at ebay to take down that misleading article - there are plenty of people that have tried but were ignored .

Put that money where your mouth is , let's see some action

You could have confronted a lot of other ebay sellers out there with China coo's for sell but you made the mistake of confronting me . While others might have backed down or kissed your ass , that is not my motto on the internet or in real life . When someone approaches me with a pitchfork I take it and shove it right back at them - you got what you asked for . You seem to think I and everyone in the world owes you a explanation , no matter how crappy of a attitude you approach them with . Maybe in your real (dream ?) life your a man of importance and are use to people bowing down but I don't play that game .

Your attempts to make me look bad are pointless - too many people know how I really am and I have been around for long enough that I'm pretty sure people know my true character .

Am I a Asshole ? Certainly , and damn proud of it

The only people that receive my asshole side is other asshole's - so congratulations , you made the club

Of course your james i was just talking to a jason in china

Daren aka darin

Ok if you prefer to whine than do something about it and to discourage people from trying to call out people they believe are scamming people, go ahead. "I guess that's what you're best at."

rayesq wrote:

Ok if you prefer to whine than do something about it and to discourage people from trying to call out people they believe are scamming people, go ahead.  "I guess that's what you're best at."

So are we done then ?

That's the best closing argument you have ?

rayesq wrote:

An article on eBay says they are not. The thread on these forums say that they are because they were made in the 70s and 80s. I would still be concerned with calling them vintage original if they are not officially licensed, especially given the propensity of items coming from China to be fakes.

rayesq wrote:

I bought a bunch of figures from a guy about a year ago. When the figures arrived almost all the weapons were Repro according to TIG.  He gave me a refund and relisted them.  I thought that was garbage and didn't want other people to get ripped off so I gave him bad reviews despite the refund.  He got upset and claimed that the new buyers were perfectly happy with their items. That just means that he duped a bunch of people.  I would like to think that if you guys represent the Star Wars collecting community, you would try to take a hard stance against people selling fakes. But I guess you would rather go ask them for their advice based on what chicken thinks I should have done when I thought he was selling fakes.
___________________________

I QUOTE:
1) "My advice: shake hands with James, and while happily collecting, keep on reading about the hobby, be active on forums. There are a lot of good people out there who can help you."

Based upon the information in this thread, it seems to me you were firmly convinced that James sold you fake vintage figures based upon one article on ebay. An article which was apparently never peer reviewed, something which became clear after the compelling evidence provided in this thread.
I got the impression you are a legal expert/officer. If this is the case, I can only assume you approach your cases in a more unbiased way, and don't let yourself get influenced too much by a single source of information. The source might be unreliable.

I noticed my friendly advice appeared on a list of remarks which you choose to ignore. That is your good right off course. A pity nonetheless.

I assume your original question to this thread has already been answered.
Can you please confirm, a simple yes or no will do.

Marco J wrote:

rayesq wrote:

An article on eBay says they are not. The thread on these forums say that they are because they were made in the 70s and 80s. I would still be concerned with calling them vintage original if they are not officially licensed, especially given the propensity of items coming from China to be fakes.

rayesq wrote:

I bought a bunch of figures from a guy about a year ago. When the figures arrived almost all the weapons were Repro according to TIG.  He gave me a refund and relisted them.  I thought that was garbage and didn't want other people to get ripped off so I gave him bad reviews despite the refund.  He got upset and claimed that the new buyers were perfectly happy with their items. That just means that he duped a bunch of people.  I would like to think that if you guys represent the Star Wars collecting community, you would try to take a hard stance against people selling fakes. But I guess you would rather go ask them for their advice based on what chicken thinks I should have done when I thought he was selling fakes.
___________________________

I QUOTE:
1) "My advice: shake hands with James, and while happily collecting, keep on reading about the hobby, be active on forums. There are a lot of good people out there who can help you."

Based upon the information in this thread, it seems to me you were firmly convinced that James sold you fake vintage figures based upon one article on ebay. An article which was apparently never peer reviewed, something which became clear after the compelling evidence provided in this thread.
I got the impression you are a legal expert/officer. If this is the case, I can only assume you approach your cases in a more unbiased way, and don't let yourself get influenced too much by a single source of information. The source might be unreliable.

I noticed my friendly advice appeared on a list of remarks which you choose to ignore. That is your good right off course. A pity nonetheless.

I assume your original question to this thread has already been answered.
Can you please confirm, a simple yes or no will do.

The funny part of all this is I never sold him the figure Marco

He simply decided to pick my auction (out of all the other China coo figures on ebay) out of the blue and send me accusations about how I was selling fakes

He didn't buy the figure or make a offer - just sent accusations .

Had he actually bought the figure and came to me with concerns I would most likely have been a little more understanding ...

Had he approached me from the start with polite questions instead of just accusations I would certainly have been my normal , helpful self

My 1st contact with him was his ebay message , how polite would you be to a complete stranger who's first words to you are "your selling fakes' ?

My only regret in this is I may have offended (or shocked) some of you guys here and I apologize to the community if I have  

Do I regret anything I said to this guy ? No , he got what he asked for . Hopefully he will approach the next person with a little more tact and actually know what he is saying is factual (and be able to back his bold statements with actual proof) before he makes accusations .

I can dream can't I  

ourchickenshack wrote:

My only regret in this is I may have offended (or shocked) some of you guys here and I apologize to the community if I have  

Do I regret anything I said to this guy ? No , he got what he asked for . Hopefully he will approach the next person with a little more tact and actually know what he is saying is factual (and be able to back his bold statements with actual proof) before he makes accusations .

I can dream can't I  

after reading this threat  can only say you just forgot one thing James and that's the

While I'm in the mood I'll have a go at A CraigT esque post:

"An article on eBay says they are not. The thread on these forums say that they are because they were made in the 70s and 80s. I would still be concerned with calling them vintage original if they are not officially licensed, especially given the propensity of items coming from China to be fakes."

The article was flawed from the start with his modified idiotic attempt at using carbon dating as proof. I (AJ) did contact the 'author' he is an ignorant twat. China vintage Star Wars is NOT the 70s which eliminates the whole trade Mao Zedong malarkey. We are specifically talking about a specific group of figures produced from the ROTJ era onwards(1983). The Copyright 1977 is the Copyright NOT manufacture date.

FYI. The Leia Bespin of James' (chicken) is the mould used latter by Lili Ledy (Mexico) to produce their figure. YES Mexican made with China stamp- love it. Applies to Lando as well. These Mexican's also used the 'Chinese' ,oulds not marked China but noted via sealed China baggies (like Luke Bespin pictured above, also Zuckuss, DSC? & ?)

China is well known for selling fakes- but also VERY well known for producing toy figures from the early 80s to present.

"It appears from this http://swspaceclub.com/wbobafett/introduction-coos/
that even if the China COO figures are "vintage" they are from altered molds and so not "original" but repro."

Oh dear Wolff would rip you a knew arsehole for misinterpreting his hard work. From his site you SHOULD be able to KNOW original moulds ie for the 'first' three Hong Kong factories- Unitoy, Smile & Kader. They were latter altered DURING the VINTAGE era by other manufacturers in Spain, Macau AND CHINA. Tawian had unaltered moulds in SW era & ROTJ era.


Now to address how do we know the China were licenesed? What proof do you need that the Hong Kong ones are licensed? Pictures of graded carded figures & baggies etc? The 'author' states AFA are an accredited authentication group. Pictures of GRADED China carded figures & baggies and loose figures are easy to find ( look above or in all the links already provided) 'CH' in AFA loose designation = China. Do not argue that is fact. Feel free to call them.

You replied to peoples posts too quickly to possibly read all the links OR re read Wolff's site. That would have empowered you with the knowledge to answer more of your questions. I like pictures- less words.

AFA graded carded China vintage original:


"If China got licensing outside Hong Kong, why would they need to alter Hong Kong molds?"

READ the site you first learnt about altered moulds!!!!

"The country marks indicate where the figure was produced. Which means where the plastic was injected into the „steel-molds“. This doesn’t indicate where it was assembled, painted or packed, which can differ from the country mark.
From time to time the production location was changed, for several reasons like: lower costs, rising the production numbers, etc.
In these cases the molds were normally altered and the country marks where changed. In the later period of production this all got messed up and the „no COO figures“ (means no country marks) were born. I think Kenner realized that it is more simple to just stamp the locations on the card back then change the molds every now and then."

ie. it was cheaper to reuse moulds- only cost: shipping & slight modification.

Now back to this again
"SOME EVIDENCE that Kenner, Palitoy, Mecco, Lucasfilm, or someone with licensing rights licensed production to China?"

What evidence has satisfied you that Hong Kong had licensing rights??????

Just in case you did not understand the question:

Show me ACTUAL substantiation of licensing to any country? Please.

"I'm basing it on common sense and common knowledge." Common sense to use a cheap labour force in a developing manufacturing powerhouse. http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6815-cardback-factory-codes?highlight=factory+code

"why the hell didn't you just provide pictures of AFA graded figures to begin with?; THAT is a well known group of experts"

bugger- first reply was a link to a thread that DID have pictures of graded China. No wonder this discussion has been difficult, AFA experts are not always more knowledgeable than some collectors here.

My credentials: aussie idiot, does NOT sell, have tried to get article taken down. Convince ebay??? LOL Their own policies are : NO SALE OF REPRODUCTIONS- would you like me to show you how well that goes?


AND then rayesq you concede a little, I can see you got a bit of an 'extra warm' welcome here & I give you credit for sticking it out.


You may now be convinced China were licensed vintage producers ( maybe) but until you show me what proof you have that Hong Kong were I can not help further.

As for "Ok if you prefer to whine than do something about it and to discourage people from trying to call out people they believe are scamming people, go ahead. "I guess that's what you're best at." "


This site was initially built to help anyone avoid reproduction Star Wars weapons. Yes that's right stop scammers. We will always discourage people from incorrectly calling out a valued community member.


As for the man with the same name as me. His behaviour/comments are what I expect & justified and I LOVE him for it


And since these unlicensed China stuff is a current 'focus' of mine everyone please send you fake shit to me cheap. Thanks

And if that doesn't sum this thread up , nothing ever will

Very well put AJ

I love you back man

I have a stupid question

As primarily a loose figure collector , I don't generally pay too much attention to MOC stuff

I am aware that Tri Logo packages can contain just about any variation or coo of many figures but I had never noticed China on the Tri Logo packages before .

Out of curiosity , were all the Tri Logo card backs themselves "Made In China" ?

Ok, I am admittely not an "expert". When EBAY has an article that says all China COO are fake. What do you expect people to think until you take the time and effort to have them remove it. It appears likely to be wrong based on what I have had to grind out of some of you guys.

I was never really trying to prove the ebay guy right. But when that's one if the first Google results for fake Star Wars figures and purports to be a guide people will tend to believe it and tgen need to be convinced otherwise.

I admit I shouldn't have been so accusatory without having researched it fully. BUT chicken is still an ass. I did not single out chicken, his listing was just the one I came across.

My example about the repro weapons the other guy sold me then resold to someone else was to show that people are getting ripped off and THAT PISSES ME OFF. So I was trying to do something about it.

Personally I think that if someone accuses you of selling fake figures you should applaud their zeal to protect the integrity of the market and politely correct them if they are wrong.

I had a guy tell me that a listing I had for a Lily Ledi Ree-Yees rifle was not Ledy. I pointed him to TIG but he just said I have been collecting Ledy for years so I'm right. I said shiw me proof and I'll remove it but he just threw a fit instead, so I left the listing.

I'm always open to bew info and people that think tgey cannot ve wrong about ... well anything, piss me off.

I really don't see how it furthers the integrity of star wars collecting to scream at someone if they are wrong.

PS Ever since I told you I was an atyorney and willing to try to get Ebay to remove the article if we could compile a compelling case some of you have only continued yo insist that I am sticking to a point despite compelling evidence. While I don't think it is as compelling as you all do, I think it is convincing enough absent hearing anything further.

Can anyone tell me, can anyone post sn article to ebay like that one or is that guy some sort of ebay employee?

All the excuses and explanations in the world does not condone being a jackass yourself .

We all applaud when someone calls out a scam artist , if they know what they are talking about , but , as you have clearly admitted , you didn't know what you were talking about .

You get politeness by giving it - no one owes you respect or explanations , that is earned .

On here it doesn't make 2 shits worth of difference that you are a Lawyer , here your just a Star Wars collector like the rest of us .

Yes , I can be a ass but only to those that deserve it .

In the future ...

Do your research and know for sure you are correct before you make accusations .

It wouldn't hurt to try your 1st approach at someone with a little more tact , had you approached me with a decent attitude I would not have been a asshole .

Do I give a shit that you don't like me ? Of course not , we will never be friends and I wouldn't sell you any of my items if you paid me twice what they are worth .

This isn't about how much of a asshole either of us are - it is about learning the facts and treating people the way you want to be treated .

ourchickenshack wrote:

I have a stupid question

As primarily a loose figure collector , I don't generally pay too much attention to MOC stuff

I am aware that Tri Logo packages can contain just about any variation or coo of many figures but I had never noticed China on the Tri Logo packages before .

Out of curiosity , were all the Tri Logo card backs themselves "Made In China" ?

Hey James, my Biker Scout Tri Logo MOC says 'made in Hong Kong' but not sure about the others mate :scratch:
A.J. Will know, when he sees the post

Thank you Andy


That pretty well answers my stupid question

If your tri logo say's Made In Hong Kong then I am sure that there are plenty of others out there that do too

I asked because I never really paid attention before and AJ had posted several China Tri Logos - it was just my curiosity getting the best of me

I just happened to look over a few of my tri logos today and noticed there were quite a few china coos.luke,han and lxw stick in my mind.most were hong kong though.but i didnt go through them all.im not sure if cards from meccano,palitoy or gmi will have different coos for the same characters.joe o is the best man to ask

Daren

Rayesq I am yet to see any of this compelling evidence you speak of.   Yes any muppet on ebay can write a guide.

From memory Luke Farmboy & X-wing & Han are China trilogo edit & Ben & : http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/

This picture is missing Han & Leia Bespin that I know of ( all the characters that can occur on China cardbacks )


I am finding (wanting to have) a few other China cardbacks with a Hong Kong sticker:  ERG, Biker Scout, Squid, Chirpa, Bossk