Hey feelars,

the nights are looong these days....and I was again trying to sort out some figures. My main proble is: I am sitting on my weapons like a chicken on its eggs. No way I will ever part of one of my weapons as long as I do not know for sure:

Which weapon belongs to which figure (Coo wise)?

Jay (Psybertech) already mentioned this in the "liberary" regarding his Luke sabers.

I am getting sleepless nights when I sell figures WITH weapons....so better finally start categorizing them!

My theory is: Each Coo family has its own weapon mold!
We have to keep in mind that EPMs are not a sign of a unique mold/Coo family because weapons were produced one spure trees! Of course this cannot be said generally....but some weapons have "reversed" EPMs but also belong to the same batch! Let us just think of the lettered lightsabers....then we have a vague opinion of how many weapons can be on one spure or can be from the same production.

We have to figure out if some weapons of the same batch can have EPMs and some can have none...or in other places, etc ! I know, I know....I have already marked one of my Biker Blasters with "EPM" but this one is seriously another mold compared to others....it just marks the simpliest point of identification....just saying... :P


Anyway...what I am trying now:
- Sort weapons in families (like on the Coos)
- Try to figure out which weapon family belongs to which figure (and Coo-family)--> NEED urgently HELP on this....so MOC collectors please step forward!!
- Show color differences and varities (even if not important!)

Of course this is a never ending task! Only thinking of Imperial Blaster or the Bespin Blaster....*shiver*....but there is also quest that are really doable!

I started to try to make some pics of two weapons: Biker Blaster and Endor Pistol. I will do all the pics in one and the same lightbox and hope you actually see the colors like I do....very natural!?!?
I also will do three or more pics of the set up and puzzle them to always have the right "angle".

I won't go with the variant terms of the gunnery....these are totally mixed up IMO and would cost me an extra ton of time (there is same families seperated in different "variants" and so on...)
Therefore I won't number the weapons in my sheets....   

I wont go with the white backdrop like in the "gunnery."...it is simply an awefull backdrop for spotting true "colors". (not trying to bash the archive...just trying to improve sth here )  


Well...nough said....here is two sheets! I now need help from MOC collectors or people who have a good archive!

(I simply cannot believe there is no good archive of MOCs in the net. It would be so simply...three pictures:
front, back, close up of bubble with figure!.....am I wrong??)





Question would be:
- Is there enough MOC collectors able/trying and ready to help?
- Should we start a new topic on each weapon in the Library?
-....or just split in one result and one discussion thread??

That would be ace. I've very recently been inquiring about which Gam Guard axe fits which coo.

I do hope the MOC community aid you in your goal. Good luck.

I am so happy you started this topic. Count me in to help with Leia Bespin which in turn will help a bit with the original Leia and Leia Hoth's blasters.

You had mentioned this concept to me a while back and it greatly changed the way I organized and looked at Leia Bespin's blasters and capes.

What started as nearly 2 - 3 times the amount of possible capes and blasters compared to the 3 distinct figure mold families, quickly could be viewed as 3 families of capes and blasters and for the most part, they always were paired with the same figure mold family. (and I would also go out on a limb and say the same for paint masks but since they are very delicate compared to steel molds and die cutters, there more than likely were a lot more than 1 per figure mold made but still would travel and be used with the same mold family).

And just like figure variants, the capes and blasters too had subtle variants within their family.

Such a simple concept and one I agree makes a ton of sense!

I have only really documented a simple cape and blaster guide. I have yet to document material changes in the capes and blasters and no real color differences in blasters, but that is in my future plans.

I have one question that has been burning in me for a while now and that is how many Asian factories were actually producing figures back in the day and what is known about their history?

In the Star Wars header cards, there is no mention of factory codes.
For ESB after the 41B (not sure about 41C) but 41Ds finally started adding factory codes on the packaging.
I have seen three (and wonder if there were more). K (Kader), U (Unitoys) and S (unknown).
For ROTJ, I know of two only (for figures, not vehicles which there is at least one more TW) and that is HN and HG. On Mr Palitoy's site, he states in his cardback notes, that HG is China and HN is Hong Kong. But again, there are only two now. And this new identifier just simplifies and confuses the history a bit.
So it seems that there were X(unkown) factories making figures for SW, up to 3 for ESB and back to 2 for ROTJ.
If there was consolidation of factories (one bought out by another - or - one company had two factories and now the codes simply were consolidated into one), which factory went where of the S, K, U?
To me HN and HG was a new way to ID S, K or U. But which is which?   
Man I wish the SW cards had factory codes. It would make things much easier to speculate.

So... back to my point of why I want to know.
If there were three factories producing MOCs and using three molds for figures, it would easy to prove what accessory belongs to which mold family.
There will always be chances of a factory having machine or supply difficulties so overstock might have been imported from another factory to help meet quotas, but overall, there should be an easy way to show what accessories would normally be shipped with a figure. (please don't say 'Tri-Logo').

I think about this allot and I mean allot! Especially recently with some discussion on POCH and Ledy, etc.'

AS TO YOUR QUESTIONS, WOLFF
Question would be:
- Is there enough MOC collectors able/trying and ready to help?
I am only a Leia Bespin guy, but I am in.
- Should we start a new topic on each weapon in the Library?
Yes. While one topic is great, it is so difficult to browse and keep track of. I like the FOTW threads. Short, sweet and to the point.
-....or just split in one result and one discussion thread??
See above.

Anyway... I know I have more to say, but right now I am fighting sobriety and loosing   .

I am here to help if possible, Wolff. Let me know if and where I can help.



cheers for now!
j

We did talk about this a long time ago   
One thread will get messy very quickly.  FOTW or similar will help keep discussion focused.

IMO HG is NOT China.  There is at least HG, HT & HN ( all Hong Kong factories /production lines )
ME is Macao
It gets very complicated.

I've tried to work out accessories & weapons with mould families I'm happy to try again.
I may be useful with Chirpa

ps. one thing at a time? CoO guide 3   

aussiejames wrote:

IMO HG is NOT China.  There is at least HG, HT & HN ( all Hong Kong factories /production lines )
ME is Macao

Yeah, I took the HG and HN info from Mr Palitoy's website, but in my mind it seemed reversed if it were to simplify China vs Hong Kong. I am no authority so I trusted Jason's words.

And yeah, TJ, TW, HT are a few I can think of that appeared on vehicles and playsets and I am sure carded figures as well. And yeah, it is a mess and confusing... but with some real good detail investigation of focus collectors or just massive collectors, it might come together quickly (in the grand scheme of things that is).

There isn't much out there on the codes and without the codes up to the mid 41 backs, it makes it harder to prove what was what, how things traveled and any origin stories of exported offshoots like Ledy and POCH.

Again, I am only good for Leia Bespin info but the overall concepts should hold true. I have seen a ton of similarities of other figures here and there. I just don't know all the figures well enough to draw lines but I have looked at some of them in hopes to find proof for some Leia Bespin info.

Anyway... I am in for what I can help with.

cheers
j

Wolff, i dont know if this might help, but here is what i can see from what i have.
If you need photos of MOC close ups, let me know, may take a little while to put it together,
but i would be happy to take some photo's if needed. 

I have only included these because i have sourced them from reliable sellers, and believe their description.
All these figures are near mint or as close to mint as possible and show no signs of any wear, so i believe the accessories to be original to them. I can only help with Vader.

These figures below, are taken off very damaged cards.
-I 1a with round tip saber
-I 2b with round tip saber and POTF Vader coin
-III 1a with round tip saber and Palitoy 12 back card
-III 1b with lettered saber x3
-VII 1b with lettered saber

These are all figures with lettered sabers, i was very fussy in choosing only figures with no wear for these.
-I 1a x2
-I 1b x4
-II 1b x1
-III 1a x2
-III 1b x13
-V 1a x2
-VI 1a x1
-VII 1a x4
-VII 1b x7

The flat tip lightsaber with the indent near the tip, seems to be a middle of production run lightsaber.
I have this type of lightsaber on MOC ranging from SW21 back to ESB48 back and few inbetween.

Thats it for now. 
This will be a massive task, but it is well worth the effort to get the correct match of accesories to the correct figures.
Also worth mentioning is that IMO a lettered saber on any of the scared coo, or raised bar coo is not correct.

I will go through my moc's and baggie ones to see if I can get some good details on weapons as well

I'm happy to help where I can with my moc's.
It would be fantastic to have a database that would enable loose collectors to precisely match figures with the correct weapon / accessory variant.

    

Help is neede for sure!!

I agree this is a monster task, but on the other hand we do not need to finish it now!!

If the pictures are done and the thread(s) are up we will surely find people *fingers crossed* that will recheck their MOCs.

I started with pic in the web on the Biker Scout, but it is quite a guess because I haven't found real good pics. Anyway....if we start with those two above people maybe could quickly check their weapons. I should be able to ID figures in the bubble (COO wise), but I know many people can also do on their own! Just saying:

Example 1:
If you have a Biker Scout MOC with "rough texture" weapon and are not sure which COO the figures has just post up a pic from the figure saying: with rough texture blaster! We can then examine the figures mold and ID it.

BIKER SCOUT:
- The polish was just for fun   
- The LL is clear and also prooven!
- The rough texture IMO is a Taiwan issue, but I have no 100% proof --> CAN ANYONE HELP?
- The small texture with EPM should be HK and related NO Coo on boot (because it is simply left when we sort rough to Taiawn and the other to MIHK)--> CAN ANYONE HELP?
- The small texture WITHOUT EPM should be a MIHK issue. Thanks to Stephane I could confirm the light one (correct mold) for Macao Biker and the PBP is also confirmed (unique hard plastic blaster).

This last "family" btw shows us how this works: The MIHK, the Scarred out and then stamped Macao and afterwards scarred out No Coo PBP all belong into the same mold family and therefore the wepaon mold (family) should always be the same. Confirmed are: Macao and PBP...same weapon mold....tells me: IT WORKS!

I already talked to Alex a few month ago regarding Luke Bespin sabers. Some can be sorted...some are still in question...though.

aussiejames wrote:

We did talk about this a long time ago   
.....
ps. one thing at a time? CoO guide 3   

Hahaha....if I make Coo 3.o people are moaning: whats with the barge...starting wepaons...moaning whats with the Coo guide??

You know me very well....I wouldn't be who I am if I would ever finish a project      

Kidding aside:
These two can go hand in hand! If I am going through Biker Scouts I can also snap some pics of the weapons. ESB is pretty much done (roughly)! So last one is I think Yoda! If I only think of undressing them all I get sick!LOL

But if I do the accessories at the same time (canes, cloaks, snakes etc) I at least only have one task...and not undressing for coos and a half year later doing this again for the cloaks...LOL

I personally find the Coo guide boring to be honest....it is all in my head since years so nothing spectacular for me to come out of this (BUT....some surprises like the unknown Snag family can still happen...LOL)

And....sorting those wepaons will last years because we simply need people to check their MOCs...this is not in my hands...though...a very longterm project. I am very looking forward working with Oscar on vader, with Jay on leia Bespin and Alex on Luke Bespin....this will bring the accessories forward for MILES....focus collectors are really very very very important to this. I have a focus of 96 figures....   ...that is just too much!    

With the Scout blaster is there two versions of 'with EPM' one with EPM on the back  & one with EPM on the back & front ( right row )

My MIM with 'Kenner' weapon is the two EPM version.

AT-ST Driver 'Taiwan' on 'Made In Hong Kong' Tri-logo card. It looks like the 'Fat' version, but I'll try to take a better photo.




I have an Imperial Gunner, A-Wing Pilot & B-Wing Pilot on POTF cards. I'll check those when I get them out of storage.

aussiejames wrote:

With the Scout blaster is there two versions of 'with EPM' one with EPM on the back  & one with EPM on the back & front ( right row )

Thanks AJ. Same family and IMO you can always see the front one....sometimes it is very faint...but its there....am I wrong??

cantina_patron wrote:

AT-ST Driver 'Taiwan' on 'Made In Hong Kong' Tri-logo card. It looks like the 'Fat' version, but I'll try to take a better photo.

I have an Imperial Gunner, A-Wing Pilot & B-Wing Pilot on POTF cards. I'll check those when I get them out of storage.

Thanks   

I am not sure btw if we should include Trilogos. What do you guys think. These are messed up very often???

In this case: it seems to be the fat one I agree...and this one (very darkblue) is comon with ATST drivers IMO....Tawian you say...good one!!

Tri logos will be very scary- so many different ones- UK type 1,2 etc...... And it's 'common' to have figure not match the card- Taiwan figure on Hong Kong card...

re front EPM- I'm not sure    Even with a magnifying glass my old man eyes can not be trusted   

wbobafett wrote:

In this case: it seems to be the fat one I agree...and this one (very darkblue) is comon with ATST drivers IMO....Tawian you say...good one!!

It's definitely a Taiwan figure as I can see coo info on both legs.  

I'm inclined to agree, in general it's probably best not to include Tri-logos for the reasons already stated.

A mammoth task indeed. With this and your coo guide 3 my WTB list will never dry up.

Great initiative, Wolff!   


It would be great to know which specific weapon mould belongs to which COO family.  Sofar I have mainly focussed on the Lili Ledy line to make sure that the figures have their correct Ledy accessories. However, with all the new knowledge being generated by this initiative, I can imagine the completist in me is looking at my loose figure collection one day in the (not so) far future and while having a bit of an unsatisfied feeling…..Suddenly he says `f*ck it` and decides to invest again in a correct set of loose weapons, canes, capes, comm links, etc. to make the collection complete again. Well if so, that is the price I am willing to pay for more knowledge, I guess.

BTW: Being mainly a loose and MIB collector, I am afraid I can not add much. I will do my best however.

Not sure how people feel about this, but I think a lot of info can be obtained by anyone who focuses on a single figure, even if they don't really focus on it in their colelction nor have many/any MOCs or baggies simply by investing the time to browse the web's images of that figure.

That is my plan for Luke and his lightsabers unless someone else gets it started before I do.
I also did this with Leia Bespin to help confirm theories and see things that I don't have in my collection.

There are so many images out there already and they can be used for this type of research I believe.
Between Googleand/or Bing images searches, users' limelights here, RS and SWF and now even facebook, there is so much potential information that already exists.
Obviously, the more popular figures will have more pictures floating around but I am sure every figure has enough images out there to start with.

Focus and variant collectors will be the best help to ID figures from the front only I would think.
I have seen a ton of loose collectors state things in threads about where a figure could be found carded even when they didn't own one themselves.

Anyway... again, I don't know if you guys feel that looking at images that aren't yours can help, but I do.
Obviously they can't always be verified, but that is where multiple examples of the same figure/card come in handy to see if they are the same or not. A bit of a law of averages will come into play I' sure.

But this type of research could be done by anyone interested in helping which would help accelerate the research greatly if people just took it upon themselves to do just one figure or even one line (SW or ESB or ROTJ, etc) of one figure to start with.

Tri-Logos:
And I implied this earlier, but for the record, no Tri-Logos need apply for most mold families that can be found prior to Tri-Logos. OK, I concede now that there will always be exceptions.
But overall, they are awesome cards, but I think there is just too much overstock in the mix, that any accessories can't be trusted much, if at all, for this type of project.

My example of why NOT:
Leia Bespin -
(A) two 70Cs with two different COO families inside
(B) one of those COO families previously could be found with a V4 Black/Blue blaster (my guide versioning system) but in the Tri-Logo with that same COO, she had two V1 Blue blasters in the bubble.

My exception:
one GM Tri with yet another family and altered mold that I have ONLY found in this Tri-Logo.

Then throw in no accessory (blaster) or wrong figure blaster altogether...
I just don't see them as reliable unless the figure was only found carded on them like my exception above.

Added benefit of this project overall:
In addition to having the correct accessories listed in one place, we also would document what backs the evidence can be found on thus giving us a list of all know MOCs and baggies for a given figure.
How cool is that? I think it could be very cool and useful!

Anyway..........................

Just my thoughts.

cheers

This is a great idea Wolff, but it has to be probably the most insanely hard task on Earth!

Like I said when you mentioned it before, I can only really vouch for Luke Bespin, which unfortunately goes instantly against the grain of the COO families from the word go   

Working on this picture (V4 & V5 are the same mold):


Working off the three COO mold families, here are some absolute definate confirmations from MOC's

HK Large - V1, V2, V3
HK Small - V1
MIHK - V1, V4/5

This of course instantly throws everything into the mix  :scratch: 


There is of course 4 actual saber molds (5 including that random one you have Wolff) only three COO molds though.

I'll continue to see what I can piece together though my friend, but good luck to you on this monumental undertaking!

COO Guide 3.0 would definately be much easy to complete   

wbobafett wrote:

Hey feelars,
We have to keep in mind that EPMs are not a sign of a unique mold/Coo family because weapons were produced one spure trees! Of course this cannot be said generally....but some weapons have "reversed" EPMs but also belong to the same batch! Let us just think of the lettered lightsabers....then we have a vague opinion of how many weapons can be on one spure or can be from the same production.

I tried to understand this a bit better, and just did some digging on the internet.

Sprue Tree


Source: http://imoldmaking.com/mold-making-2/mold-design/runner-and-gate/injection-mold-sprue-and-runner/


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injection_molding

• Sprue: A sprue is a channel through which a molten plastic material is being injected from the nozzle of the injection machine into the mold. It has a smooth, round, tapered wall to allow smooth material flow.
  
• Runner System: Runners are channels where material flows from the sprue to the cavities.
  
• EPM (Ejector Pin Mark): Mark the spot where the newly injected plastic product is pushed out of the mould by ejector pins.
  

Ejector Pins

Source: http://www.bridgat.com/mold_components_ejector_pin_punch_guide_pin-o266889.html


Well it seems that ejector pins can't just be drilled through steel, so there need to be holes in the steel mould for these pins to be able to reach the central plastic injection cavity to be able to push the freshly cast sprue trees out. Right?

That means that that the existence of EPMs on products is a characteristic of the steel mould used to produce the corresponding sprue trees.


It can be imagined that every product (weapon, belt, etc.) within a sprue tree is directly ejected by pins during the process.
For some accessories - the Ledy cane comes to mind - this seems to be the case. Every Ledy cane has an EPM.

Just a few pins connected to 1) the runner or 2) just to a few of total actual products can also be enough to eject the complete sprue out of the mould. In that case 1) none or 2) only a small number of products have the EPMs.
On a very side note: that would be an explanation for the rubbery Meccano/POTF cane with EPM, whereas these canes normally lack EPMs.   




Now with respect to the placement of the EPMs (top or bottom):

It seems logical that the pins approach the sprue tree from one side. Pushing the sprue from two opposite sides with two sets of ejector pins just seems not very effective. In case the products (guns, weapons,..) are facing the same side towards an imaginary set of ejector pins coming from above or below the plane of the sprue tree, you would expect all EPMs to be placed on the same side of the product.


Source: Source: http://bloodofkittens.com/wargaminghub/2013/10/08/alternative-heavy-weapons-battery-new-uk-plastics-company-pdc-gaming/

When you look at the sprue above, all the guns are having the same orientation towards an imaginary set of ejector pins. In case the pins would come from above (below) all would have an EPM at the right (left) side

Now take the second sprue and focus on the four guns at the top left. The first and third gun are rotated 180 degrees towards the other two guns. Still all four guns face the same side towards an imaginary set of ejector pins.
In case the pins would come from above (below) all rifles would have a EPM at the right (left) side.


Source: http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=8789


From these examples it is clear that products having EPMs on opposite sides, must be orientated differently inside the sprue (and not just rotated).

Now it would be interesting to dig up some pictures of vintage SW sprue trees, and see how the different weapons are orientated.


BTW: This is not my field of expertise, just did some searches on the internet and wrote down what seems logical. Would be really good to have some input from someone who has a professional knowledge on industrial plastic injection.

Dr Dengar wrote:

Now it would be interesting to dig up some pictures of vintage SW sprue trees, and see how the different weapons are orientated.

Like this?



I haven't seen EPMS on the sabers, but at least it shows that at least some SW accessories were made opposing each other.

And here is a rotated one:


cheers!

* edited Jay beat me to it   

@Marco, there's a post somewhere on RS showing a collection of weapon sprues. From memory there's a DT saber and bespin blaster sprue, I'll be damned if I can find it though.

Maybe AJ the master of finding lost posts can help?

Beat me too it as well. Jay I thought you had a hangover? LOL!!

Cheers, Jay!   

Nikto's vibro staff can have an EPM on either the left or right side.

So these might be oriented differently towards each other within the same sprue tree.

Another explaination: two different sprue moulds.

http://www.imperialgunnery.com/staffsaxessection.htm#427932015

Dr Dengar wrote:

Cheers, Jay!   

Nikto's vibro staff can have an EPM on either the left or right side.

So these might be oriented differently towards each other within the same sprue tree.

Another explaination: two different sprue moulds.

http://www.imperialgunnery.com/staffsaxessection.htm#427932015

havent read it all but good research Marco...and I never have seen the bespin blaster sprue before   

Just one quick comment:

That is the reason why we NEVER should categorize weapons just for their EPM position! We have to compare the molds....the EPMs can be reversed, like on Ree Yees rifle...on left...one on the right but same mould IMO!



I will nevertheless use those as identification point sometimes because it is sometimes the most easiest way....