(I posted this in the Ledy research thread before, but sofar I haven't received much input there. So I post it here as well, hoping to get some more input or answers. )



Question: What is the connection between between Lili Ledy and PBP?
Answer: ?


Sofar I haven't been able to get a clear answer. So I thought about sharing my current view which is based upon the gathered knowledge from others and my own ideas. I hope you would like to share your own views/ideas/comments to get some good discussion and in the end hopefully a clear answer.

What is clear is that some Ledy and PBP figures are virtually indistinguishable. The used moulds as well as the paint applications are the same. This is for instance the case for Ben Kenobi, Yoda (dark green version), C-3PO (non removable limbs with screw at the back). Maybe other figures as well?

How to explain these resemblances?

• It might be that these figures were exported from Spain to Mexico. It seems unlikely because of Mexican's protectionist trading laws at that moment (we are talking the pre NAFTA era), stating that toys for the Mexican market had to be produced in Mexico. A good thing actually, otherwise we would never ended up with those nice Lili Ledy variants.
  
• So maybe the other way around, i.e. export of figures from Mexico to Spain? Ledy first started to produce the 3 3/4” figures in 1983, or even one year earlier if we believe Alejandro Becerra, Ledy Quality Control Director, claiming that Lili Ledy produced all 10 figures for their ‘test market’ ESB 10-backs themselves in 1982. In case of export from Mexico to Spain it would mean that the dark green Yoda was released by PBP not earlier than 1983. Same for the C-3PO with screw at the back, which – oddly - was released by PBP on a removable limbs C-3PO card. True or false?
  
• Maybe there was no export of figures at all, neither from or to Mexico. Maybe the resemblance of some Ledy and PBP figures can be explained assuming both factories were using the same moulds. But if this was the case, you still would expect to see some clear paint differences, and we don't. Remember that most Ledy figures have clear paint differences compared to figures produced in other factories.

Any idea?

To make things more confusing, here is another interesting figure: The blonde hair Ledy Luke Bespin. This figure was released on Ledy's ESB 10-back but also on the early ROTJ 12-back. The brown hair Ledy Luke was released on later ROTJ cards.

Ledy Luke Bespins: Brown hair with Ledy COO (no. 8 ) and blonde hair with PBP COO (no. 4).









Though being released on Ledy cards, the blonde hair Luke has a PBP COO (COO no. 4) and even came with PBP accessories.

So what is he:

• a PBP figure which was exported to Mexico to be released on the Ledy ESB 10-back and early ROTJ 12-backs?
  
• a Ledy figure?
  
• something else?

well that would explain your snow trooper on the Ledy ESB 10-back

has your snow trooper got a pbp coo ?

Dr Dengar wrote:

How to explain these resemblances?

[list][*]It might be that these figures were exported from Spain to Mexico. It seems unlikely because of Mexican's protectionist trading laws at that moment (we are talking the pre NAFTA era), stating that toys for the Mexican market had to be produced in Mexico. A good thing actually, otherwise we would never ended up with those nice Lili Ledy variants.

Marco:

The only thing i can answer you with 100% acurracy is that you are 100% right about this particular issue... at that time, the persons who lived that era can remember perfectly well that before the late 80`s or early 90`s the Mexican's protectionist trading laws were severe, nothing could enter mexico except illigaly, we call that era "the Proteccionsimo and paternalismo" because the goverment act like our father, protecting the mexican factories and jobs ( that is why the quality control was so low, becasue there was no outside competition!) . So all those Ledy toys those were manufactured in Mexico!!

By the way , I lived that era , so I know what I`m talking about , not from books or pics, that was real life!!

About the other things you talk about I will prefer that the Ledy experts chime in!

talking about the same issue.... i found this at my mom`s house in mexico City,....

Back from 1979 an Original Atari Basic Rev A 8-bit Atari Cartridge , my father bought it for me back in the late 70`s, he brought it from USA, and an ATARI DIg Dug cartridge, I bought that in the early 80`s in the black market in mexico city, of course it was introduced to Mexico illigaly ( as almost everything else during that time)

merlin wrote:

Dr Dengar wrote:

How to explain these resemblances?

[list][*]It might be that these figures were exported from Spain to Mexico. It seems unlikely because of Mexican's protectionist trading laws at that moment (we are talking the pre NAFTA era), stating that toys for the Mexican market had to be produced in Mexico. A good thing actually, otherwise we would never ended up with those nice Lili Ledy variants.

Marco:

The only thing i can answer you with 100% acurracy is that you are 100% right about this particular issue... at that time, the persons who lived that era can remember perfectly well that before the late 80`s or early 90`s the Mexican's protectionist trading laws were severe, nothing could enter mexico except illigaly, we call that era "the Proteccionsimo and paternalismo" because the goverment act like our father, protecting the mexican factories and jobs ( that is why the quality control was so low, becasue there was no outside competition!) . So all those Ledy toys those were manufactured in Mexico!!

Hi Merlin

At that time could molds from Spain and HK of entered mexico legally, or would that of been illegal?

snaggletooth wrote:

Hi Merlin

At that time could molds from Spain and HK of entered mexico legally, or would that of been illegal?

Hi Snaggletooth,


Yes, If there were moulds from the outside ( spain, HK, USA etc.etc.) I´m sure they entered totally Legally , BUT also I´m sure that all materials were from Mexico as OZIO confirms it with this transaltion of this important interview with 2 ex ledy workers...... ( now Marco has the same book)

OZIO wrote:

Nice work Marco, i'll like to add this:
There are two interviews with 2 LL ex-employess, and this is what they said about the 10 figures from the LL ESB line:

Alejandro Becerra, LL Quality Control Director (1981 to 1985)
'The 10 figures from the ESB LL line where fully produced in Mexico, molds where imported from kenner's factories on Asia'

Celia Flores Jimenez, LL Color line Supervisor (1966-1985)
'Nothing came from outside, we manufactured absolutely all, clothes, accesories, guns.


Magazine cover for Alejandro's interview

Alejandro's interview by Julio Moreno, Josefina and Luis Galvez


magazine cover for Celia's interview

Celia's interview by Luis Villagomez

More pics here:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1824552449480.106540.1110304487&l=5b9f9f4d6a

According to this 2 Ex-Employees, the 10 figures from the LL ESB line (Luke Bespin, Snowtrooper, Rebel Commander, Han Hoth, Bespin Leia, Vader, Chewbacca, C3PO, R2D2 and Yoda) are 100% made in Mexico, So that Snowtrooper you have was probably made in Mexico m8.

Hope this info helps.

Thanks for you reply Merlin, I've seen that post from Ozio before but totally forgot the bit about the molds being imported. Great info

Good discussion over here!

Adolfo: Thanks for giving us an inside view on the trade restrictions in Mexico at that time.

BTW: Some Great ATARI stuff that brings back good old memories. I had an Atari 800XL in the mid 80s while most of my classmates had a Commodore 64 at home. The Atari was technically superior, having better graphics and sounds, but they did do a poor marketing job so in the end they lost the competition. Similar story like the P2000 and VHS video systems.
I remember I could play games like "Rescue on Fractalus" (produced by Lucasfilm, so this is still on topic, more or less ) for hours on this machine. When playing the game at my friend's place on a Commodore 64, I never understood why Commodore was so biig when I was a kid. In fact - just having watched the Youtube movies below - I still do not understand. .




Now I am hijacking my own thread, the good old Atari memories let me carry away from the topic.

Dr Dengar wrote:

Good discussion over here!

Adolfo: Thanks for giving us an inside view on the trade restrictions in Mexico at that time.

BTW: Some Great ATARI stuff that brings back good old memories. I had an Atari 800XL in the mid 80s while most of my classmates had a Commodore 64 at home. The Atari was technically superior, having better graphics and sounds, but they did do a poor marketing job so in the end they lost the competition. Similar story like the P2000 and VHS video systems.
I remember I could play games like "Rescue on Fractalus"(produced by Lucasfilm, so this is still on topic, more or less ) for hours on this machine. When playing the game at my friend's place on a Commodore 64, I never understood why Commodore was so biig when I was a kid. In fact - just having watched the Youtube movies below - I still do not understand. .

Now I am hijacking my own thread, the good old Atari memories let me carry away from the topic.

I hear you my friend!! , I had the ATARI 400 ( I remember that the keyboard was a pain in the ass!!) and then the 800, I also think the ATARI was superior in all ways with even having the advantage of expanding the memory modules ( something that at that time was almost impossible to think!) , but at some point the Commodore gain a big step with the Summer Olympics game!! , remember ?? , and ATARI went a step back with that idiotic pacman game!

I remember that game "Rescue on Fractalus" , LOL , I see it now and it looks like only moving dots!! ..LOL!!

Thanks Marco, I hope you will continue this thread

Hey Marco,
You posted a thread a while ago from a thread that you had broken up concerning a Bespin Luke with a raised bar, the one where the Wolff said he was positive it wasn't Ledy, well I've been researching Bespin Luke for as while now and I've found what could be that figure on at least two PBP cards. It's by no means a certainty, but just thought I'd mention it, because the Ledy ESB 10 Back Luke is basically the same as the European Bespin Luke which could be found on PBP, Tri-Logo and Palitoy cards, but this other Luke is a dead ringer for the standard Ledy Luke, and it maybe that it's a PBP figure! I've struggled to find other origins for it so far, but will be continuing to look. It's like in reverse! Bizarre.
Just thought I'd mention it as another similarity.
Sorry about the briefness of this, I'm borrowing internet off the sister-in-law for a second while mines down.
Gotta run!

Hi Marco, my thoughts on the blond Luke (based on Merlin's post on the trading laws) is that he's a Ledy figure made with the same mold as the PBP, the accessories too.

There is also some other COO's you might find of interest. I have two other figures that are not Ledy but have the same COO's, Just a guess but they could be PBP
The Rebel Commander, Made in no COO
Death squad Cammander, no COO

Another couple of figures I think Ledy got the mold's of PBP for are the Stormtrooper and Tie Pilot, the 3 variants of the tie pilot could have come from the same mold that lost the filling used to fill in the COO's

General and Scott, thnaks for sharing your ideas!!!

Maybe JC and Javi can chime in, to share their views on this topic. We could use some Spanish input here.

Hi Marco I just remembered that your blonde hair Luke's Light saber is from the China baggie figure not PBP, Ledy maybe had that mold from China as they also have a Luke with that same COO.

I don't know if PBP also had that mold at some point but I've seen the luke baggie with that saber in.

snaggletooth wrote:

Hi Marco I just remembered that your blonde hair Luke's Light saber is from the China baggie figure not PBP, Ledy maybe had that mold from China as they also have a Luke with that same COO.

I don't know if PBP also had that mold at some point but I've seen the luke baggie with that saber in.

Hi Scott,

I don't agree with you on this one. I think it wouldn't make sense if this PBP/Ledy blonde Luke figure, which was produced in Spain or Mexico, was packed with an accesory from China.

The blonde Luke came with a V2 saber. It has the same mould as the V1 saber. Only difference is the colour:
The Ledy saber (V1) is almost translucent yellow, whereas the PBP saber (V2) is solid yellow. So it is a PBP saber IMO.

I agree with you that the brown Luke from the 'Made in China-baggie' also came with a V2 saber. But that doesn't mean that all V2 sabers were produced in China.

Likewise the Mexico produced Ledy Zuckuss, Boushh, and Ackbar guns/staffs share the exact same mould with their Kenner counterparts which were produced in the Far East. That makes it also very hard to distinguish these Ledy accessories. Why didn’t Lili Ledy cast them in grey instead of black, it would have made things easier for Ledy collectors nowadays. On the other hand..easy is boring.

What do you think?

I dont think the accessories are from china mate just the molds, but that doesn't fit in with that han blaster as Ledy never produced these right? Is there any proof the V2 came with the PBP Luke? I allways thought it was PBP until I seen the china baggie.

If there is proof that PBP had that mold then I'd think it more likely that ledy recived the saber mold along with the Luke mold from PBP and not china. Then your accessories could have been PBP overstock sent with the molds, against the law but possible.

Hi guys, Han Blaster was produced by Lili Ledy I will try to get a picture of it as I dont have one for the moment you just have to trust me

OZIO wrote:

Hi guys, Han Blaster was produced by Lili Ledy I will try to get a picture of it as I dont have one for the moment you just have to trust me

That would be great if you could prove that Ozio. If that is the case then Ledy would not have had to receive the overstock from PBP/China just the mold's. As for the colour on the saber, some spare overstock plastic could have been sent from Spain/China with the molds or there could be 3 plastic Variants for this saber. It could easily be possible that Ledy produced the saber made from 2 different plastics, look at vader for example.

Dr Dengar wrote:

How to explain these resemblances?

• It might be that these figures were exported from Spain to Mexico. It seems unlikely because of Mexican's protectionist trading laws at that moment (we are talking the pre NAFTA era), stating that toys for the Mexican market had to be produced in Mexico. A good thing actually, otherwise we would never ended up with those nice Lili Ledy variants.
  
• So maybe the other way around, i.e. export of figures from Mexico to Spain? Ledy first started to produce the 3 3/4” figures in 1983, or even one year earlier if we believe Alejandro Becerra, Ledy Quality Control Director, claiming that Lili Ledy produced all 10 figures for their ‘test market’ ESB 10-backs themselves in 1982. In case of export from Mexico to Spain it would mean that the dark green Yoda was released by PBP not earlier than 1983. Same for the C-3PO with screw at the back, which – oddly - was released by PBP on a removable limbs C-3PO card. True or false?
  
• Maybe there was no export of figures at all, neither from or to Mexico. Maybe the resemblance of some Ledy and PBP figures can be explained assuming both factories were using the same moulds. But if this was the case, you still would expect to see some clear paint differences, and we don't. Remember that most Ledy figures have clear paint differences compared to figures produced in other factories.

Any idea?

From the Rebel Scum post: http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1072470/

Wolff wrote:

In addition some Ledy figures can pop up on spanish ROTJ cards like Yoda, Ben Kenobi, Luke Bespin etc. These are exactly like their originals in mexico. Many people tried to track down the differences but IMO is there is simply non, not even in the accessories.

After reading Wolff's post on RS, I am strengthened in my belief that option 2 seems to be most plausible. In other words, Lili Ledy produced certain figures, which were imported by PBP for release on the Spanish market.
If this is true, it would imply that those figures were not released by PBP earlier than 1983. We are talking:

• Ben Kenobi
  
• C-3PO with screw at the back
  
• Luke Bespin blond hair
  
• Yoda (dark green PBP version)
  
• And probably some more figures as well (R2D2, Klaatu, Leia Boushh,.....more?)

PBP collectors: please confirm or dismiss this theory!!!


"One more thing..."

How about the PBP accessories (saber and smuggler/Han Solo blaster) of the Ledy blond hair Luke Bespin (in the first post of this thread)? Were these produced in Mexico too and then exported to Spain? It is possible. But that would mean that Lili Ledy produced the smuggler blaster only for a very limited number of figures (Luke Bespin blond hair and Han Solo Hoth) which appeared on ESB 10-backs The smuggler blaster did not appear with any other Ledy figure on ROTJ cards.

There might be an alternative explanation. Maybe these accessories were produced by PBP and imported by Lili Ledy. It is not so unlikely considering that Kenner also exported overstock weapons to Lili Ledy which were subsequently packaged with Ledy figures on Made in Mexico cards for the US market. This was still within the boundaries of the Mexican protectionist trading laws at that time. Though accessories were imported they were subsequently exported for the US market.

Some more info on Made in Mexico Cards

Maybe there was a similar connection between PBP and Lili Ledy. Accordingly PBP exported accessories (Han Solo blasters, Yoda canes, Yoda capes, Ben light sabers, Luke light sabers, ....) to Mexico were they were packaged together with Ledy figures and exported back to Spain. How? Probably not carded, but maybe in baggies. Just a wild theory off course, but it is nice to test it.

Eagerly awaiting your input, guys!

Hey MArco ,

I have been searching/purchasing POCH/PBP loose childhood collections lately and i have NEVER found a Blonde hair luke bespin like the LL one, showed on the first page.Maybe the stamp on that LL figure is the same as the PBP one but the paint job is different IMO.I have found many times the green/brown haired luke similar to the LL, here in Spain, even with LL saber and laster  .I think that the blond Luke sold in Spain was the Euro Luke bespin , i mean the caramel or dark boots Luke....
These are the luke bespin i have found here in Spain so far(childhood collections all of them)
[url=https://servimg.com/view/15013140/568][img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f41/15/01/31/40/lu
Great thread BTW
Hope this help

Hey Javi,

Thanks for your input!!

About the blond Luke: so the paint apps of the blond Ledy Luke might be specific for Ledy and not appear on PBP figures? Interesting, we need some more input here!

The brown hair Luke Bespin 2nd from the right looks like a Ledy Luke Bespin. Thicker saber, black eyes. Raised bar by any chance?

BTW: You started a great project collecting vintage figures from Spanish childhood collections. Good source for genuine PBP/POCHE figures! Good luck!!

Dr Dengar wrote:

....so the paint apps of the blond Ledy Luke might be specific for Ledy and not appear on PBP figures...

i am agree with your theory

Dr Dengar wrote:

The brown hair Luke Bespin 2nd from the right looks like a Ledy Luke Bespin. Thicker saber, black eyes. Raised bar by any chance?

yeah, is the same figure IMO

Dr Dengar wrote:

BTW: You started a great project collecting vintage figures from Spanish childhood collections. Good source for genuine PBP/POCHE figures! Good luck!!

its been very funny focus
cheers

javiswspain wrote:

Dr Dengar wrote:

The brown hair Luke Bespin 2nd from the right looks like a Ledy Luke Bespin. Thicker saber, black eyes. Raised bar by any chance?

yeah, is the same figure IMO

So we can add the brown hair Luke to the list of figures which are the same for PBP and Ledy.

Dr Dengar wrote:

In other words, Lili Ledy produced certain figures, which were imported by PBP for release on the Spanish market.
If this is true, it would imply that those figures were not released by PBP earlier than 1983. We are talking:

• Ben Kenobi
  
• C-3PO with screw at the back
  
• EDIT: Luke Bespin blond hair?
  
• EDIT: Luke Bespin brown hair
  
• Yoda (dark green PBP version)
  
• And probably some more figures as well (R2D2, Klaatu, Leia Boushh,.....more?)

Do you know whether those figures were first released by PBP in 1983?

Dr Dengar wrote:

• Ben Kenobi
  
• C-3PO with screw at the back
  
• EDIT: Luke Bespin blond hair?
  
• EDIT: Luke Bespin brown hair
  
• Yoda (dark green PBP version)
  
• And probably some more figures as well (R2D2, Klaatu, Leia Boushh,.....more?)

Do you know whether those figures were first released by PBP in 1983?

My childhood 3 PO have the screw on bck and was for sure purchase before 1983, i think on 1982

javiswspain wrote:

My childhood C-3PO have the screw on bck and was for sure purchase before 1983, i think on 1982

This is very interesting!!!


Assuming the Ledy-PBP theory is correct, your childhood memory suggests that the Ledy C-3PO was already produced in 1982 and exported to Spain.

So Alejandro Becerra, Ledy Quality Control Director, might be right when he claims that Lili Ledy produced all 10 figures for their ‘test market’ ESB 10-backs themselves in 1982.

C-3PO was one of the ten figures to appear on the 10-ESB backs...

I am allways wandering myself about the origin of the POCH/PBP Brown chocolat Han hoth
What about if he comes from Mexico aswell??there is no a carded example to proof that that figure was ever packed in a Spanish or mexican card , as far as i know .....


:scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
CRAZY theory , i know...
BTW you have PM Marco