finestcomics wrote:

Way to take an intelligent conversation down to the level of hurling personal insults.
When you act like the pantload you really are, at least it shows people what you're really about, instead of the charade you put on.

So I'll take that as a "no" for your non-comic related information , and first hand knowledge ?

Bill

sithtoys wrote:

finestcomics wrote:

Way to take an intelligent conversation down to the level of hurling personal insults.
When you act like the pantload you really are, at least it shows people what you're really about, instead of the charade you put on.

So I'll take that as a "no" for your non-comic related information , and first hand knowledge ?

Bill

I have nothing but contempt for your ilk, and nothing to share in this discussion, not because I'm uninformed, but because I'm well aware of how you operate. To point to my "alleged" inability to provide thoughtful discussion and insights here when you've demonstrated far less desire to do so when incidents called for "openness" instead of your brand of guarded expertise is reprehensible and shameful.

I'm completely confused at what is going down here. My question and topic surrounds Star Wars prototypes.
Bill's knowledge on this topic is extremely impressive. My advice is to listen to what he has to say.
If the name calling keeps up, I'll just ask John to end this thread. I wanted this to be a beneficial and educational thread on preserving historical Star Wars prototypes.
-Steve

So I'm guessing that means I'll have to take you off my speed dial for SW information ?

Bill

~ Still waiting on those facts and non-comic references, or another sophomoric attempt at
being insulting Of course, you could just keep things OT, instead of derailing yet *another*
thread with your mindless tripe

Steve

This is a great post and I think to stop it would be unfair to everyone but I see your point.

Guys let us keep on topic please. I don't want to shut this down.

Posted this on RS earlier this evening..

Checked an old e-mail from Tom Derby he sent me in 2010 after I submitted my VC first shot for grading. According to Tom, the figure would have been graded with a Q (qualified) if a weapon did not come with it. As a favor, he included an early translucent version with a bump and the figure (now sold) received an 80. Also, the grade report "should" detail if a weapon or cape differs from the production version. Of course, this concerns figures graded by AFA.

Steve,

Personally, I think it is a shame that the blue saber had been lost. The yellow one is a nice filler, but the historical province is a tad lost. I have a copy of the 1998 Toy Shop Ad that both figures were sold/auctioned under. A first shot Jawa (VC) had also been sold in the same auction. Always nice to read the cheap prices they went for back in the "old days"..

On a related note, one of the seven first shot jawas I have confirmed did not come with a cape. Of course, this is the most "normal" looking figure as well. The capes are different or have differences for the other six. If someone were to switch capes, it would stand out (at least to me).

Would I be naive in saying that each Vintage first shot from the "First Twelve" with pre-production accessories are unique? From the thin Leia cape to the fuller Tusken Raider cape, some should stand out more than others. Just a thought..

Interesting info about AFA Jason. Thanks for the reply. My Blue Snag is graded without the "Q" and without the blaster?.?. Mine was graded back in that time period too. I posted what was replied by email, from AFA this year, about those circumstances.
What I wouldn't give to have a copy of that original 1998 Toy Shop add (for the auction) to display with my Ben. I printed off the adds Bill provided by email (thanks Bill McBride) but to have an original printed version would be cool.
The yellow prototype DT saber has been separated and displayed as its' own prototype now. My first shot Ben is displayed, as is, without a saber because I really think he should be displayed as he was found(with a production blue DT saber).
I think some of the first 21 prototypes have different characteristics also. I know you are talking about accessories and comparing them to other prototypes but I noticed differences in my prototypes to not only production but other prototypes (whether it is paint color or mold). My first shot Greedo has unique hand painted colors. My first shot Walrus Man has a unique plastic molded head (different plastic used) and wider grip hand (this does match another prototype WM I have seen but different from a production piece). I just noticed the hand recently and did some research that supports this different mold... My first shot DSD is extremely sharp in mold details, like I've never seen on a production figure (but as far as I know there is not another complete first shot to compare this too). My first shot Chewbacca has extremely different peg holes under the feet to a production but matches 2 others from the 2004 Earth find. My Ben seems to have a different plastic used to mold his head. The list goes on. I just keep documenting all these subtle differences for my own collection archive : ) And that is, again, sorta why I started this thread. The historical info can be as big as the collection itself! It is up to us to preserve both and not make it up in our own heads... : ) (sorry for my ramble)
-Steve

This is part of an email excerpt I received from Tom in Jan 2012 explaining an NG (Q-grade) FS Obi Wan and some concerns I had with repairs performed on the "blue" DT saber that came with it:

Quote :

The difference is that pre-production figures such as first shots are eligible to receive Q-grades even when they are missing an accessory. In this instance, it is historically important to note that another mushroom-tipped first shot Ben Kenobi has surfaced and better to keep the repaired saber with the unaltered first shot. Therefore, no grade can be assigned and the No Grade label does simply mean "No Grade". A serial number is included so as to guarantee possible future owners that the figure is in fact the same figure which originated from a Kenner source...

All of that aside, pre-production items of all types have been repaired. Examples include re-glued wax sculpts, almost any mock-up, and many other types of items. In the case of prototypes, condition is often not a major factor and a prospective buyer wants to first establish provenance/authenticity and then wants a full disclosure of condition including repairs. It is when the repairs are not disclosed that there is a problem. Also, to clarify there is no question that the saber has been repaired not by Kenner, but to recreate some aspect of the original appearance when it had broken into 7 pieces and would be hardly recognizable and almost impossible to identify as a mushroom-tipped variety. I see nothing wrong with sealing this item with 'No Grade' and a description of the provenance as well as the repairs. While I have traced the source all the way back to Kenner, I have no relationship, business or otherwise, with the owner or anyone else involved with this figure. I provided a description to help prospective buyers. Those who wish to avoid repaired pre-production and one-of-a-kind items may do so. Also, for the record I didn't receive one penny for even providing the COA and observations about the first shot figure and DT saber.

sith jawa wrote:

Would I be naive in saying that each Vintage first shot from the "First Twelve" with pre-production accessories are unique? From the thin Leia cape to the fuller Tusken Raider cape, some should stand out more than others. Just a thought..

It's really piece by piece. Some have unique accessories, and some don't. I think overall, the figure and the original
accessories combined does make each one unique as the sum of the whole. As you know with the Jawas, even your
reversed leg example serves as a fingerprint for the piece when you can finally match it up to a picture, catalog, etc.
So imagine if someone would have "corrected" that figure, or altered it. You would have never been able to document
it with the picture.

There is also no real pattern to the figure and the known existing examples, and keeping them original is even more
paramount. A good example of this is comparing Ben and Vader prototypes. There are several Ben protomolds and
FS, but the number of Vaders (total) is only 4. Of those, only two of the Vaders could be considered as matching,
the other two are wholly unique. (mixing and matching would be impossible) The end result, as we have seen is quite
a few Bens have had replacement accessories, while the smaller group of Vaders, there is only 1 that has had an
accessory matched to it. That is why I think it is absolutely paramount these pieces stay as original.

Bill

"There are several Ben protomolds and FS"

Hey Bill I only know of 8 first shot Bens and a couple EP Bens. How many first shots are out there? I know Chris P. had 5 at one time (I think), Mine which I got from him, one on SWCA, one Tom has or had, and the one with the broken MT DT. 8 total... But I'd like to learn about the others...
And what Vader are you talking about that was paired with an accessory that did not come with it?
Thanks, -Steve

check that, Chris had 4 first shots of Ben, not 5.... so that changes my number from 8 to 7 first shot Bens that I know of...

There are at least three others in private collections (between the protomolds and FS), but I can't discuss the
source/owners of those.
The single Vader that has a "new" accessory is the only one of the 4 I don't have, so that should tell you who
pulled that one In regards to what is in my collection, every single piece from the HCs on down to the EPs
have been 100% maintained as original since they have been in my collection. So it's not a case of "do as I
say, not as I do", mine have been preserved, as original since the day they were discovered.

Bill

I respect your privacy regarding those 3 other Bens you mentioned Bill. But I forgot to mention one more, the one in the 2004 Earth find. Is that piece one of the 3 you mentioned? So we are looking at aprox 11 then...
I'm confused on that other Vader. I thought it was found with a MT DT saber? I can understand if you'd like to discuss this privately over an email...
-Steve

The other 3 Bens are in addition to the others mentioned. To the best of my knowledge, they are still with the original
collectors and probably won't see the light of day for some time.
The other Vader is the 2nd MT, which had a production cape added to it. (however, I believe that was disclosed at some
point). The MT and the DDT Vaders in my collection both have unique capes that were hand cut for each figure and are
made of a very thin black plastic, and are original to those figures. The other FS is an unproduced mock up, and wouldn't
have been paired with any accessories.

Bill