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 New Weapon guide----an attempt

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Dr Dengar
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 10:01 am

Great initiative, Wolff!  :clap: 


It would be great to know which specific weapon mould belongs to which COO family.  Sofar I have mainly focussed on the Lili Ledy line to make sure that the figures have their correct Ledy accessories. However, with all the new knowledge being generated by this initiative, I can imagine the completist in me is looking at my loose figure collection one day in the (not so) far future and while having a bit of an unsatisfied feeling…..Suddenly he says `f*ck it` and decides to invest again in a correct set of loose weapons, canes, capes, comm links, etc. to make the collection complete again. Well if so, that is the price I am willing to pay for more knowledge, I guess. Very Happy

BTW: Being mainly a loose and MIB collector, I am afraid I can not add much. I will do my best however.
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 10:45 am

Not sure how people feel about this, but I think a lot of info can be obtained by anyone who focuses on a single figure, even if they don't really focus on it in their colelction nor have many/any MOCs or baggies simply by investing the time to browse the web's images of that figure.

That is my plan for Luke and his lightsabers unless someone else gets it started before I do.
I also did this with Leia Bespin to help confirm theories and see things that I don't have in my collection.

There are so many images out there already and they can be used for this type of research I believe.
Between Googleand/or Bing images searches, users' limelights here, RS and SWF and now even facebook, there is so much potential information that already exists.
Obviously, the more popular figures will have more pictures floating around but I am sure every figure has enough images out there to start with.

Focus and variant collectors will be the best help to ID figures from the front only I would think.
I have seen a ton of loose collectors state things in threads about where a figure could be found carded even when they didn't own one themselves.

Anyway... again, I don't know if you guys feel that looking at images that aren't yours can help, but I do.
Obviously they can't always be verified, but that is where multiple examples of the same figure/card come in handy to see if they are the same or not. A bit of a law of averages will come into play I' sure.

But this type of research could be done by anyone interested in helping which would help accelerate the research greatly if people just took it upon themselves to do just one figure or even one line (SW or ESB or ROTJ, etc) of one figure to start with.

Tri-Logos:
And I implied this earlier, but for the record, no Tri-Logos need apply for most mold families that can be found prior to Tri-Logos. OK, I concede now that there will always be exceptions. Razz
But overall, they are awesome cards, but I think there is just too much overstock in the mix, that any accessories can't be trusted much, if at all, for this type of project.

My example of why NOT:
Leia Bespin -
(A) two 70Cs with two different COO families inside
(B) one of those COO families previously could be found with a V4 Black/Blue blaster (my guide versioning system) but in the Tri-Logo with that same COO, she had two V1 Blue blasters in the bubble.

My exception:
one GM Tri with yet another family and altered mold that I have ONLY found in this Tri-Logo.

Then throw in no accessory (blaster) or wrong figure blaster altogether...
I just don't see them as reliable unless the figure was only found carded on them like my exception above.

Added benefit of this project overall:
In addition to having the correct accessories listed in one place, we also would document what backs the evidence can be found on thus giving us a list of all know MOCs and baggies for a given figure.
How cool is that? I think it could be very cool and useful!

Anyway..........................

Just my thoughts.

cheers
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General Kahn
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 10:58 am

This is a great idea Wolff, but it has to be probably the most insanely hard task on Earth!

Like I said when you mentioned it before, I can only really vouch for Luke Bespin, which unfortunately goes instantly against the grain of the COO families from the word go  Sad 

Working on this picture (V4 & V5 are the same mold):

New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Hilt_c10

Working off the three COO mold families, here are some absolute definate confirmations from MOC's

HK Large - V1, V2, V3
HK Small - V1
MIHK - V1, V4/5

This of course instantly throws everything into the mix  :scratch: 

The V4/5 mold appears to be European in origin, which would match it with all the MIHK figures with the exception of the Blonde unaltered one, which was exclusive to the U.S. and so wasn't issued with this Euro variant. The V2 & 3 sabers have also been called Palitoy sabers but this is inaccurate as they can be found on Kenner cards as well as Palitoy cards.

There is of course 4 actual saber molds (5 including that random one you have Wolff) only three COO molds though.

I'll continue to see what I can piece together though my friend, but good luck to you on this monumental undertaking!

COO Guide 3.0 would definately be much easy to complete  Wink 
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 12:04 pm

@wbobafett wrote:
Hey feelars,
We have to keep in mind that EPMs are not a sign of a unique mold/Coo family because weapons were produced one spure trees! Of course this cannot be said generally....but some weapons have "reversed" EPMs but also belong to the same batch! Let us just think of the lettered lightsabers....then we have a vague opinion of how many weapons can be on one spure or can be from the same production.

I tried to understand this a bit better, and just did some digging on the internet.

Sprue Tree

New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Sprue-runner-gate-300x134
Source: http://imoldmaking.com/mold-making-2/mold-design/runner-and-gate/injection-mold-sprue-and-runner/

New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Mold_cavity
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injection_molding


  • Sprue: A sprue is a channel through which a molten plastic material is being injected from the nozzle of the injection machine into the mold. It has a smooth, round, tapered wall to allow smooth material flow.
  • Runner System: Runners are channels where material flows from the sprue to the cavities.
  • EPM (Ejector Pin Mark): Mark the spot where the newly injected plastic product is pushed out of the mould by ejector pins.



Ejector Pins
New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 EjectorPins_zps2185c00e
Source: http://www.bridgat.com/mold_components_ejector_pin_punch_guide_pin-o266889.html


Well it seems that ejector pins can't just be drilled through steel, so there need to be holes in the steel mould for these pins to be able to reach the central plastic injection cavity to be able to push the freshly cast sprue trees out. Right?

That means that that the existence of EPMs on products is a characteristic of the steel mould used to produce the corresponding sprue trees.


It can be imagined that every product (weapon, belt, etc.) within a sprue tree is directly ejected by pins during the process.
For some accessories - the Ledy cane comes to mind - this seems to be the case. Every Ledy cane has an EPM.

Just a few pins connected to 1) the runner or 2) just to a few of total actual products can also be enough to eject the complete sprue out of the mould. In that case 1) none or 2) only a small number of products have the EPMs.
On a very side note: that would be an explanation for the rubbery Meccano/POTF cane with EPM, whereas these canes normally lack EPMs.  unsure 

New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Th_IMG_0514_zps2b7b7ee6


Now with respect to the placement of the EPMs (top or bottom):

It seems logical that the pins approach the sprue tree from one side. Pushing the sprue from two opposite sides with two sets of ejector pins just seems not very effective. In case the products (guns, weapons,..) are facing the same side towards an imaginary set of ejector pins coming from above or below the plane of the sprue tree, you would expect all EPMs to be placed on the same side of the product.

New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 SprueFacingSameOrientation_zpse21b7582
Source: Source: http://bloodofkittens.com/wargaminghub/2013/10/08/alternative-heavy-weapons-battery-new-uk-plastics-company-pdc-gaming/

When you look at the sprue above, all the guns are having the same orientation towards an imaginary set of ejector pins. In case the pins would come from above (below) all would have an EPM at the right (left) side

Now take the second sprue and focus on the four guns at the top left. The first and third gun are rotated 180 degrees towards the other two guns. Still all four guns face the same side towards an imaginary set of ejector pins.
In case the pins would come from above (below) all rifles would have a EPM at the right (left) side.

New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 SprueFacingSameOrientation_3_zpsaa1e7b07
Source: http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=8789


From these examples it is clear that products having EPMs on opposite sides, must be orientated differently inside the sprue (and not just rotated).

Now it would be interesting to dig up some pictures of vintage SW sprue trees, and see how the different weapons are orientated.


BTW: This is not my field of expertise, just did some searches on the internet and wrote down what seems logical. Would be really good to have some input from someone who has a professional knowledge on industrial plastic injection.
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 12:13 pm

@Dr Dengar wrote:

Now it would be interesting to dig up some pictures of vintage SW sprue trees, and see how the different weapons are orientated.

Like this? Smile

New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Tree-dt-saber

I haven't seen EPMS on the sabers, but at least it shows that at least some SW accessories were made opposing each other.

And here is a rotated one:
New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Tree-bespin-gun

cheers!
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 12:16 pm

* edited Jay beat me to it  Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 12:18 pm

@Marco, there's a post somewhere on RS showing a collection of weapon sprues. From memory there's a DT saber and bespin blaster sprue, I'll be damned if I can find it though.

Maybe AJ the master of finding lost posts can help?

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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 12:19 pm

Beat me too it as well. Jay I thought you had a hangover? LOL!!

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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 12:24 pm

Cheers, Jay!  Very Happy 

Nikto's vibro staff can have an EPM on either the left or right side.

So these might be oriented differently towards each other within the same sprue tree.

Another explaination: two different sprue moulds.

http://www.imperialgunnery.com/staffsaxessection.htm#427932015
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 12:28 pm

@Dr Dengar wrote:
Cheers, Jay!  Very Happy 

Nikto's vibro staff can have an EPM on either the left or right side.

So these might be oriented differently towards each other within the same sprue tree.

Another explaination: two different sprue moulds.

http://www.imperialgunnery.com/staffsaxessection.htm#427932015

havent read it all but good research Marco...and I never have seen the bespin blaster sprue before  Shocked 

Just one quick comment:

That is the reason why we NEVER should categorize weapons just for their EPM position! We have to compare the molds....the EPMs can be reversed, like on Ree Yees rifle...on left...one on the right but same mould IMO!

Wink

I will nevertheless use those as identification point sometimes because it is sometimes the most easiest way....
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 12:32 pm

Silly question time.

Has anyone ever tried contacting kenner/hasbro regarding the manufacturing processes used, more specifically details of the tooling?

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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 12:36 pm

@General Kahn wrote:
.....

HK Large - V1, V2, V3
HK Small - V1
MIHK - V1, V4/5

This of course instantly throws everything into the mix  :scratch: 

The V4/5 mold appears to be European in origin, which would match it with all the MIHK figures with the exception of the Blonde unaltered one, which was exclusive to the U.S. and so wasn't issued with this Euro variant. The V2 & 3 sabers have also been called Palitoy sabers but this is inaccurate as they can be found on Kenner cards as well as Palitoy cards.

There is of course 4 actual saber molds (5 including that random one you have Wolff) only three COO molds though.

 

Are you sure it is actually 4 or 5 sabers molds on Luke Bespin???

Is there any of those that only appeared since ROTJ?? We have to keep in mind that Luke Jedi shares some of those....or does Luke Bespin share some with Luke Jedi??? Very Happy:D
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 1:05 pm

@ Marco:

why does your Mec rubbery cane have EPM??? Wether Walkies, mine nor AJ's have EPM  :scratch: :scratch: 
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 1:31 pm

@wbobafett wrote:
Are you sure it is actually 4 or 5 sabers molds on Luke Bespin???
 
The difference between V2 & V3 is the placement of the buttons:
 
New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Hilt_c11
 
The problem is, that this button placement is usually only different on one side. Basically one side is low the flip side is the higher. This is not always the case though, sometimes both sides are the same. I used to think that the differences where also the colour, normal and neon, however this can appear on either.
 
Is it then likely that both the V2 & V3 came from the same sprue and are essentially the same mold?
 
This would then reduce the number of Bespin Luke saber variants to 3 the same as the COO families.
 
Of course there is still this one of yours?????
 
New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Lights11
 
So lets change the picture to just the three:
 
New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Hilt_c14
 
The new chart looks like this:
 
HK Large - V.1, V.2
HK Small - V.1
MIHK - V.1, V.3
 
 :scratch:
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 1:34 pm

@wbobafett wrote:
@ Marco:

why does your Mec rubbery cane have EPM??? Wether Walkies, mine nor AJ's have EPM  :scratch: :scratch: 

Don't know Wolff. Trying to get an explanaiton as well.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 2:15 pm

@Marco....will need to check if there is other rubbery ones not belong to Mec...maybe it got mixed up??

@Alex:

I wanted to understrike the fact that some of the molds were also used for Luke Jedi...maybe we have 4 molds because one Luke jedi slipped in?? Could be if one of the sabers didnt appear before ROTJ

On the other hand: If you think the neon one appears in both molds (circles up and down) then they are indeed from the same sprue and therefore one mold!...havent checked yet but you are better in those anyway..LOL

Forget my example.....I tend now to believe it couls be repro..though Sad Sad Sad

I mean snt it starnge noone ever found a second one?? Okay...this is also starnge thinking about repros... :scratch: :scratch: 
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 2:40 pm

V.1 and V.2 definately came before ROTJ and I'm also 99% certain the V.3 did as well.

The V.1 and V.2 where used for Luke Jedi green saber also and the V.3 for the Ledy, there is that picture of the V.2 blue, but I'm not sure if that's confirmed? In the picture the blue saber has exactly the same flaws as the green one shown, mold flaws or just a very good cast from the green one?  :scratch:
 
New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Lights12
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 2:47 pm

@General Kahn wrote:

....
In the picture the blue saber has exactly the same flaws as the green one shown, mold flaws or just a very good cast from the green one?  :scratch:
 
New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Lights12
.....

Or they just used blue plastic in the same mold. And perhaps slightly different plastic material which makes it look a tad different in the way it filled the mold cavity and/or retained its form during cooling.

At least that appears to be the case with the Princess blasters Black/Blue and Blue.
My thoughts are these molds weren't re-created for Bespin or Hoth Leia, just different color and/or material plastics were used.

That would be my best guess as it would be cheaper to re-use than re-create.

cheers!
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09, 2014 3:04 pm

The other thing of course is, more weapons where probably produced than figures. The figure mold would produce 2, 3 or sometimes 4 figures with each injection, as can be seen by the 'Earth Find' weapon sprues much more where produced at a time (8 Rebel Blasters, 10 Sabers).
I appreciate that they could maybe for example inject one lightsaber sprue for every 5 Luke mold injections, so there would be 10 figures and 10 sabers, but it's more likely that they produced much more weapons than figures as they are easily broke and lost, and they always had spares for the 'Kenner Really Does Care' please send me a new saber as I broke mine letters.

I can't even remember where I was going with this, but if any of that makes sense then make of it what you will Smile
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13, 2014 3:05 pm

I've unearthed my POTF moc's with Endor blasters.

A-Wing Pilot - black blaster 'thin' (as stated by Wolff) with HN factory mark next to the POP & 'Made In Hong Kong' printed.

B-Wing Pilot - blue blaster 'flat' with HT factory mark next to the POP & 'Made In Hong Kong' printed.

Imperial Gunner - black blaster with 'L' (as stated by Wolff) with HG factory mark next to the POP & 'Made In Hong Kong' sticker. On another example I had, I carefully lifted the sticker, and from memory it had 'Made In China' printed underneath (I'll try to find the pics).  

IMO having three different sculpts linked to three different factory marks is a good sign. It will be interesting to see what others come up with.

I'll try to take some pics tomorrow (if the light is good enough).


Last edited by cantina_patron on Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13, 2014 3:16 pm

@cantina_patron wrote:
I've unearthed my POTF moc's with Endor blasters.

A-Wing Pilot - black blaster 'thin' (as stated by Wolff) & HN factory mark next to the POP.

B-Wing Pilot - blue blaster 'flat' & HT factory mark next to the POP.

Imperial Gunner - black blaster with 'L' (as stated by Wolff) & HG factory mark next to the POP.

I'll try to take some pics tomorrow (if the light is good enough).




 cheers cheers cheers  THANKS FOR THAT


@ Alex:

This picture is floating around since years and believe me I moved mountains to find that blue saber!!! I do not belive it is real anymore (meaning a production saber) Sad

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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13, 2014 3:24 pm

No problem Wolff. I think this is a great idea for a project & hopefully you'll get a very good response from the moc collectors.

BTW the B-Wing pilot has the copyright info on the figures left leg.  Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13, 2014 9:44 pm

I fully support this. Smile

It would help us identify the real weapons from the bootlegs one more easily but at the same time it would help bootleggers get more accurate with the weapons and fool more people.

its a fifty/fifty situation... in my opinion.

But i am a sucker for minute details on some stuff.... not for buying purposes but for historical reasons. Its always fun to see " how its made" and " where its made".

I am not into variants so i cant be of much help. Sad


good luck with this project. It would make TIG even more the definitive site to visit for your information needs.

2 thumbs up!
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PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 14, 2014 5:59 am

Here's some pics of the Endor blasters I described yesterday. I'm not happy with the quality, but hopefully they show enough detail to confirm what I said.

POTF A-Wing Pilot
New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Dscn6735

POTF B-Wing Pilot (copyright info on figures left leg)
New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Dscn6736

POTF Imperial Gunner
New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Dscn6737

When I checked my loose childhood figures (which came on Tri-Logo cards), they have the same accessories. I must admit that when they were released, I no longer played with them so that would account for it.  Very Happy 
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Join date : 2011-10-26
Age : 49
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New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16, 2014 6:40 am

Come on guys, where are the other moc collectors to help with this project?

Which weapon are you looking to do next Wolff?
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New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Weapon guide----an attempt   New Weapon guide----an attempt - Page 2 I_icon_minitime

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New Weapon guide----an attempt

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