When I go to bed each night, I check under the bed for a repro storm trooper! scares the crap out of me every time.

Good they seem to realize it after your post. I've only managed to file in one ebay report. Damn I hate these things, couldn't he at least have made another coo or some drastic change on the front. I don't think a coo is enough imo, it need to be able to id:d from front, not under the arm.

Chris_J wrote:

I want to sign up and get them so straight on there. These things are not bootlegs people. They are no more than custom pieces that look like the originals. But for someone who doesnt promote them, they sure do like them alot. Makes you want to collect My Pretty Ponies, I tell you.

I agree someone needs to tell them the difference between a true bootleg and fake reproductions!

" In order for a bootleg to be legitimate, that's an oxymoron if I have ever heard one, it must be a fairly large-scale operation, usually made in a factory or other large facility. The other point that must be met is distribution. In order for a bootleg to be recognized as a bootleg it must have been distributed to a store to be sold to consumers. "

well I believe these are factory made & have a large distribution now, including being seen at Hong Kong toy stalls

To me, that definition would make it a knock-off. Something that was mass produced in an area where the toys were originally made, but as a cheap alternative to the original thing. Like these.



Even though some consider these as bootlegs, they are sold mainly where the original figures were also sold. Bootlegs were made and sold where the figures were not released and sold originally. But what Poons is is nothing but a rip off of the originals. Thats where I dont understand some peoples thinking that its so cool that he's doing these things. The more I look at them and read people praising these things, makes me not even want to be in a hobby where they are accepted anymore.

"• Bootleg level 1: These are the most common bootlegs. Basically these are exact copies cast from original toys. They can come carded, bagged, boxed, or loose. Usually the packaging mimics the packaging of the toy line being bootlegged though sometimes only one package may be copied and used as a generic package for all of the bootlegs.
• Bootleg level 2: These are very similar to level 1 bootlegs except there is one major difference, the size is altered. They can be larger or smaller than the original but the main qualifier of the level is that size is changed while all else remains an exact copy.
• Knock-offs: These are toys that are influenced by a line of toys but far enough removed to possibly escape copyright infringement, yet recognizable enough to see the influence of a line. "

regardless of what these end up getting 'labeled' as they are bad news.

Thanks AJ.

These reproductions would fit into the definition of level 1 bootlegs then?

jaymassive619 wrote:

Chris_J wrote:

I want to sign up and get them so straight on there. These things are not bootlegs people. They are no more than custom pieces that look like the originals. But for someone who doesnt promote them, they sure do like them alot. Makes you want to collect My Pretty Ponies, I tell you.

I agree someone needs to tell them the difference between a true bootleg and fake reproductions!

The quote above answers that very well. There is a difference between bootlegs and knock-offs and what Poons is. All those Stormies are is customs, nothing more. They are reproductions of an original. I know, so are bootlegs, but bootlegs have a place in this hobby and its history, These dont, just like reproduction weapons and accessories. So if you want to put them in a class, slap them where they belong, in the custom catagory with his RF Fetts and Vlix's.

I have difficulties to understand all this. Let's try to approach this discussion very objectively, to have a clear unbiased view on the matter. Maybe it helps - I can not guarantee off course - just follow me.

First let's take the definition above.

" In order for a bootleg to be legitimate, that's an oxymoron if I have ever heard one, it must be a fairly large-scale operation, usually made in a factory or other large facility. The other point that must be met is distribution. In order for a bootleg to be recognized as a bootleg it must have been distributed to a store to be sold to consumers. "

Now let's first review Poon's black Stormtrooper. I say Poon, though he stated on RS that he didn't produce these figures himself. But for the sake of clarity, I just call them Poon Stormtrooper.

1. Fairly large-scale production: hundreds scale probably. CHECK!
   
2. Made in a factory: well maybe not a factory but very likely a facility with a professional plastic equipment. CHECK!
   
3. Distribution channel: ebay (focussed on adults/collectors, wanting to have them as gadgets) and probably shops in China (focussed on children, using them as toys. Next time when I am in China, I will keep an eye on the small shops in town): CHECK!

The black Stormtrooper seems to match all three bootleg criteria so should be considered a bootleg, unless you want to revise the definition, which is off course a possibility. It is not a custom, IMO a custom is something which is associated with small production scale, 'handmade', and made for collectors not for kids. Like Poon's Vlix figure.

Let's do a fast forward to 2022 and imagine these black Stormtroopers had been a success in 2012-2015. How would the collecting community regard them? Bootlegs, maybe modern bootlegs, is my guess.

Ok now we come to Poon's white Stormtrooper.
Basically the same story. The fact that this figure looks like an exact copy of the original doesn't do any harm to all three criteria discussed above.

OK, I admit it is quite a novelty that Poon's white Stromtrooper is almost an exact copy of the original. We haven't seen that before, but that merely reflects today's technology instead of yesterday's intentions. I am by no means a plastic expert, but I understood from the discussions that these figures were probably made using smaller scale high tech plastic production equipment than Kenner used in the 70s/80s. Correct me if I am wrong. Honestly, if the bootleg factories in Poland, Hungary, Mexico would have had today's technology (or Kenner's budget), I am sure they would have made exact copies as well. So it is today's technology which makes the difference here. The world is progressing, to me it seems bootlegs are as well, just accept it and walk further. Or disapprove, but then be consequent and modify the current definitions.

BTW: Don't think I am a fan of Poon's Stormtroopers after reading this. Check the comments in the link below, to read my opinion on them:

http://www.jeditemplearchives.com/content/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=9558

I wrote this only to stimulate having an open discussion on the used terminology for these Stormtroopers.

Cheers

Personally, I was being very objective and unbiased towards this thread and made my statements as I see them, as you did. But let me ask you this. What did Mark call them when he first put them up on the market? Pray tell? He called them CUSTOMS. So why is it so hard to accept them as customs and not as bootlegs when the man who made them clearly called them customs? It dont matter what equipment you use, either one from 1987 or 2022, they will still be called what they are. Is that understandable now for you? Poon called them customs from the get go, so why try to re-label them into something they are not. If thats the case, all figures from Meccano, Palitoy, etc. are bootlegs too since they are copies from the original.

Mark Poon's Stormtroopers match the definition of bootlegs given above, that is the point I want to make. So either they are, or the definition should be revised.

How Mark calls his Stormtroopers is not relevant for the point I made.

Meccano, Palitoy, did not produce figures I think, but if they did (like PBP), they were licensed figures which by nature are no bootlegs.

Back to you..

How Mark describes his stormies is relevent to what your trying to say. If he calls them customs, then why should we call them bootlegs, even if they do fit the definitions above. Also where did those defintions come from? I know there was someone on RS who wanted to re-class bootlegs at one time, but JoeY even told him why change something thats worked for years. As far as I know of, there is no levels to bootlegs. It either is or isnt. Customs is in the level of just that customs. Theres no need in trying to re-classify these and make people wonder what the hell is going on. What we need is Joe or Steven to come in an post their thoughts on what these are. Maybe then some will understand the difference between a custom and a bootleg.

Your turn.

Chris_J wrote:

If he calls them customs, then why should we call them bootlegs, even if they do fit the definitions above.

So either the definition given above needs revision, or we accept an inconsistency. That was the point I made earlier.

Chris_J wrote:

Also where did those defintions come from? I know there was someone on RS who wanted to re-class bootlegs at one time, but JoeY even told him why change something thats worked for years. As far as I know of, there is no levels to bootlegs. It either is or isnt.

Just in general, also a explanation which worked for years might still be improved in the light of new ideas/observations, to better understand the systems around us.

Observation: The current definition can not handle Poon's Stormtroopers so well.

Go easy on me for entering this debate, but I understood customs to be licensed production figures which have had their original appearance modified. e.g. repainted, swapped body parts etc.

Bootlegs are unlicensed figures which resemble, but are not identical to production figures, by differing in size, quality, materials used, paint app. etc.

I would class the white stormtrooper as counterfeit as it is an almost exact copy of the original production figure and could easily be passed off as such.

Thank you CP for that. But a custom is a fan made item like the custom RF Fetts that Mark makes. Just like the Stormies he does. Which as you said are counterfiet items. Real bootlegs were made for the open market where they didnt have the chance to obtain the actual figures. Now Marks stuff is as fake as they come. Thats why I can wrap around why they should be classified as anything but what they are, fakes and customs. There are some nice customs out there, but no one has ever called them bootlegs before cause they know what they are looking at.

Hey CP, now we are getting somewhere: A proposed change in the definition which is better capable in distinguishing between real bootlegs and Poon's reproductions.

Your definition:
Bootlegs are unlicensed figures which resemble, but are not identical to production figures, by differing in size, quality, materials used, paint app. etc.

The other (author X):
In order for a bootleg to be legitimate, that's an oxymoron if I have ever heard one, it must be a fairly large-scale operation, usually made in a factory or other large facility. The other point that must be met is distribution. In order for a bootleg to be recognized as a bootleg it must have been distributed to a store to be sold to consumers. "

So combined:
Bootlegs are unlicensed figures which resemble, but are not identical to production figures, for instance by differing in size, quality, materials used, paint. In addition bootlegs are (1) made in a factory or other large facility, (2) produced in relative high numbers, and (3) distributed to stores to be sold to consumers for toy purposes.

According to the new definition, Poon's white Stormtroopers are not bootlegs. *

I am satisfied, goal reached.



*) But Poon's black Stormtroopers still are.

cantina_patron wrote:

I would class the white stormtrooper as counterfeit as it is an almost exact copy of the original production figure and could easily be passed off as such.

Agreed - These are counterfeits. They are nearly exact replicas of the licsened product. Not meant for kids nor being sold in a market where the toys are not commercially available. What's even more troubling is the packaging states they are trademarked by LucasArts. THEY AREN'T!

That's my $.02. I'm bowing out...

Still like to know where those definitions came from. They look like ones that guy on RS who didnt know anything about bootlegs to begin with came up with. He came in and wanted to re-do the whole system to benifit his thinking I believe. I'll look for that thread here in a bit to see if it his. If it is, those can be thrown out the window completely.

OK - I know I said I was bowing out. But FUCK - these things are being promoted on other sites. Why can't people see that these are BAD for vintage collecting?? Tell me that these fuckers aren't going to find their way into mixed lots, sold as the real thing, etc... If you really like vintage collecting then fight to get rid of these things! They are NOT VINTAGE and they are going to create a huge shit storm... Look what they are already doing. FUCK - Why am I getting so pissed off? Because it's bullshit - that's why.

Goddamn it

Heres a good way to look at it coming straight from Mr. Bootleg himself.

Historically and they represent so many different facets of how SW has impacted the worlds culture. Here are a few points just off the top of my head.
1) with US available knock offs, just how ingenious some companys were to make a SW "looking" product that wasn't exactly SW,but definitely was close enough. It makes for a fun collection to have stuff like this. It's interesting visually.

2)In poorer nations,where the parents couldn't afford the licensed items IF they were available, the variety of bootlegs showed what children would play with to at least get some part of this magical world that SW created and put into thier minds.

3) In former Soviet Bloc nations it showed that while licensed figures may have been illegally imported, many familys either didn't have access to them, or couldn't afford them. Once again the ingenuity and profiteering of bootleggers put a piece of the SW universe in the hands of children to play with.

4)And most importantly; Other than Uzay figures I've never encountered a bootleg that could even remotely pass for its licenced equivilant. While they were made to look like Kenner SW figures (sometimes even cast from Kenner SW figures) there is no way possible that anyone could possibly ever be confused on what is a Kenner figure, and what is a bootleg if they've ever seen both.

On the opposite side REPROS:

1) Makers and sellers of repro items are generally out to intentionally fool people into believing that the weapons are real Kenner items. They try harder and harder to make the items as perfect as possible to fool you.

2) Most repro SW weapon makers refuse to mark thier items as reproduction. I was AMAZED when I saw how accepted repro items are in the Mego community; The reasoning, because most of the repro makers there are part of the community and care about it, so they mark thier items either as Repro, or with thier company logo to distinguish them from the real thing. Such a simple thing that could distinguish the repros from real, and make it so the repro makers are not pirriahs in the community.

3) it's not cost prohibitive to wait and buy orig weapons and accessories. IF you can afford the LUXURY of being able to collect toys as an adult, you can afford $4 for a real weapon over $1 for a POS repro.

4) in the case of recards it's just computer generated crap,it's not vintage in any way. Just another way to try to rip off people that WANT genuine Kenner MOC figures.

The Repro side also includeds Poons stuff since they are reproductions of the original item like repro weapons are.

I agree that the unpainted RF Fetts, Vlix & white Stormtrooper produced by Poon et al are best describd as repros. Although this is not my area, I don't believe the terms custom or bootleg are appropriate for these items.

I quoted JohnA from here : http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=48033


[QUOTE=JosephY;18738825]They're currently being sold as modern bootlegs not vintage figures.[/QUOTE]

hence my confusion :scratch:

Thank you AJ. Now to help you out with that, John A asked in that article when is a bootleg not a bootleg. They stop being a bootleg when they are fake, like the FX Master ones. Cant speak for Joe on this, but he was refering to how they were being listed on Ebay as modern bootlegs. Thats the way the sellers was getting around the no fake shit sold on Ebay by saying they were bootlegs. Thats why he said they were currently being sold AS bootlegs. But all in all these things are fakes just like the FX Masters and the Pablo stuff. So to finish this out, Poons stuff still doesnt fit in with those classes as bootlegs, as Ive said before. If anything, they are fakes. Does that help out some now, AJ? Just trying to clarify what these things are or arent, and bootlegs they arent.

Repros, custom, or bootleg aside, these are not good. I despise these things. I want to get every one of them that were produced, start a bonfire, and give them a good ole heave hoe into the burning flames, and Poonface too. What an arsehole.

They don't match bootlegs or customs imo. Maybe the black one could be custom, but the white one is a damn repro in my eyes and it's going to fuck up collecting a lot, it's probably already am.

Sigh guess I will have to buy one of these fuckers just so I can id my troopers in the future... but then I am giving that asshole money...

OK the 2 packs arrived today. They are the exact same as the loose ones. No colour splotches on the legs, same COO.
Unlike some who can 'spot' these from pictures- I am struggling to tell 100% the difference from a vintage figure.
The bubble shaped as a stormtroooper helmet does have the waffle pattern.