Hi guys, I just need a second opinion from you guys about those figures.

Is that chewbacca figure from Palitoy ?





Is that Princess Leia figure from Palitoy ?





Is that Hammerhead figure from PBP ?

Wolff wrote : " At the end of the day one point is very important: The country stamp is in most cases no proof of where or when a figure was sold. Lots of collectors still try to categorize the figure-markings to cards or baggies. Some of these „rules“ are: Ledy is always no COO, China figures appeared only in China baggies, Trilogo has always no COO figures on it, Scarred out figures are always PBP, Taiwan figures only appeared in Europe, etc, etc. These „rules“ are all wrong and in so many cases. There is China figures even on HK cards, no COO figures on ESB cards and many HK figures on Trilogo cards. You can have China, HK, and no COO figures on Ledy cards, etc. You can of course find more Taiwan figures in Europe and some Hong Kong COOs seem to only have appeared in the US, but this is all very unsure and can never be for 100%.
So what is the COO good for then? In fact its more a stamp that marks a certain mold. Molds can be duplicated or „travel“ from producer to producer. Exeptions can be found in nearly all cases. Overstock was shipped in other countries and packed there on other cards, etc. So this thread is a reference which shows the stamps in relation to their mold and paint variants. To determine where or when these figures appeared is in most cases nearly impossible."



edit- quote from here: http: http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1072470/

aussiejames wrote:

Wolff wrote : " At the end of the day one point is very important: The country stamp is in most cases no proof of where or when a figure was sold. Lots of collectors still try to categorize the figure-markings to cards or baggies. Some of these „rules“ are: Ledy is always no COO, China figures appeared only in China baggies, Trilogo has always no COO figures on it, Scarred out figures are always PBP, Taiwan figures only appeared in Europe, etc, etc. These „rules“ are all wrong and in so many cases. There is China figures even on HK cards, no COO figures on ESB cards and many HK figures on Trilogo cards. You can have China, HK, and no COO figures on Ledy cards, etc. You can of course find more Taiwan figures in Europe and some Hong Kong COOs seem to only have appeared in the US, but this is all very unsure and can never be for 100%.
So what is the COO good for then? In fact its more a stamp that marks a certain mold. Molds can be duplicated or „travel“ from producer to producer. Exeptions can be found in nearly all cases. Overstock was shipped in other countries and packed there on other cards, etc. So this thread is a reference which shows the stamps in relation to their mold and paint variants. To determine where or when these figures appeared is in most cases nearly impossible."

At least, some wise words...

Thank you AJ

JC

I think both you & I have said similar things before, but I figured if I quoted Wolff's wise words as well we'd get the point across

Im just happy that the "article" was read...LOL

nothing to add here!

Quote :

Im just happy that the "article" was read...LOL

Damn good article, well worth the read!

aussiejames wrote:

Wolff wrote : " At the end of the day one point is very important: The country stamp is in most cases no proof of where or when a figure was sold. Lots of collectors still try to categorize the figure-markings to cards or baggies. Some of these „rules“ are: Ledy is always no COO, China figures appeared only in China baggies, Trilogo has always no COO figures on it, Scarred out figures are always PBP, Taiwan figures only appeared in Europe, etc, etc. These „rules“ are all wrong and in so many cases. There is China figures even on HK cards, no COO figures on ESB cards and many HK figures on Trilogo cards. You can have China, HK, and no COO figures on Ledy cards, etc. You can of course find more Taiwan figures in Europe and some Hong Kong COOs seem to only have appeared in the US, but this is all very unsure and can never be for 100%.
So what is the COO good for then? In fact its more a stamp that marks a certain mold. Molds can be duplicated or „travel“ from producer to producer. Exeptions can be found in nearly all cases. Overstock was shipped in other countries and packed there on other cards, etc. So this thread is a reference which shows the stamps in relation to their mold and paint variants. To determine where or when these figures appeared is in most cases nearly impossible."



edit- quote from here: http: http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1072470/

So there is no kenner, palitoy, lili ledy, takara, meccano etc. etc. variants. So why do marco make a lili ledy guide if it is all wrong ? and we can find all figures on all types of cards ?

I am confused :scratch:

Quote :

So there is no kenner, palitoy, lili ledy, takara, meccano etc. etc. variants. So why do marco make a lili ledy guide if it is all wrong ? and we can find all figures on all types of cards ?

There are a few exceptions, Ledy is a good example, there figures in the majority of case are unique to Ledy cards and where produced in Mexico and can't be found anywhere else, this is probably a result of strict import / export laws in Mexico back in the 80's. In other cases some figures may be unique to a certain card, example, Meccano Boba Fett is unique to a Meccano produced Tri-Logo card. European production was, as the afore mentioned article by the Wolff states, very confusing! I collect Bespin Lukes and have researched them quite alot, European Bespin Lukes typically had the COO's removed in several different ways, but these can never be directly linked to one specific card, example Dark Boots Bespin Luke, often called PBP Luke, could be found on Palitoy, Tri-Logo and PBP cards, and just to confuse it even more, I still have my Bespin Luke from childhood, it came off an ESB Palitoy card and it has a Hong Kong COO. A lot of figures where imported in some cases.

General Kahn wrote:

Quote :

So there is no kenner, palitoy, lili ledy, takara, meccano etc. etc. variants. So why do marco make a lili ledy guide if it is all wrong ? and we can find all figures on all types of cards ?

There are a few exceptions, Ledy is a good example, there figures in the majority of case are unique to Ledy cards and where produced in Mexico and can't be found anywhere else, this is probably a result of strict import / export laws in Mexico back in the 80's. In other cases some figures may be unique to a certain card, example, Meccano Boba Fett is unique to a Meccano produced Tri-Logo card. European production was, as the afore mentioned article by the Wolff states, very confusing! I collect Bespin Lukes and have researched them quite alot, European Bespin Lukes typically had the COO's removed in several different ways, but these can never be directly linked to one specific card, example Dark Boots Bespin Luke, often called PBP Luke, could be found on Palitoy, Tri-Logo and PBP cards, and just to confuse it even more, I still have my Bespin Luke from childhood, it came off an ESB Palitoy card and it has a Hong Kong COO. A lot of figures where imported in some cases.

Oh so there is no unique chewbacca palioy, hammerhead pbp and princess leia palitoy ?

But what figures is then unique ?

I quote myself now...LOL:

"we are able to solve some mysterys. Ill try again:

We have the big Asian producers, like Hong Kong, Taiwan, China and Macau. These produced figures that were packed in other countries and on several cards and baggies.
And we have the small local producers who produced (injection process) and packed their figures in the same place like Poch/PBP, Lili Ledy, Glasslite and Top Toys.

So we can solve the mystery what figures and coos appeared on LL, PBP/POCh, Glasslite and TopToys cards. There was and still is huge research from the community in these areas.

The problem is:
- Overstock
Some rare PBP figures can be found even on some US cards. Trilogo figures can already appear on ROTJ cards, etc
- Export
PBP, LL seemed to have some figures exported. These are also very common and can be find in large numbers everywhere in europe (PBP) and US (LL).
- Import
Again PBP also seemed to have Taiwan marked figures and LL figures imported to get the character numbers filled up. Maybe they were not able to produce them all on their own (PBP also produced other toys in this period). Maybe it was cheaper to do so, etc.


So if you talk about HK and Taiwan and China figures you can give examples where they have appeared, but you can not determine evrey HK Fett to a certain US, Europe, etc. card.
What we can do is to determine what figures appeared on LL, PBP, Glasslite and TT cards. BUT, and this is important, most coos they used arent unique! So you always need several characteristics to detremine these: Coo. plus material, plus color sheme, plus spray masks, etc.
In case of the LL figures the color shemes were even changed over the years. You can find several LL figures in more then one typical color sheme.

So this guide shows which coos are i.e. Ledy produced, but if there is noted also another variant below this coo you have to be carefull and need to check for other characteristics too!


BTW: I didnt mentioned Meccano at all, but we have to solve some myterys there too. On french Trilogo cards we have some specific variants in very, very small numbers (with unique coo). Are these really asian procuced?? Only sent to Meccano?? Or did even meccano started their own production in a very very late period??? Sound all very unusual... "

wbobafett wrote:

I quote myself now...LOL:

"we are able to solve some mysterys. Ill try again:

We have the big Asian producers, like Hong Kong, Taiwan, China and Macau. These produced figures that were packed in other countries and on several cards and baggies.
And we have the small local producers who produced (injection process) and packed their figures in the same place like Poch/PBP, Lili Ledy, Glasslite and Top Toys.

So we can solve the mystery what figures and coos appeared on LL, PBP/POCh, Glasslite and TopToys cards. There was and still is huge research from the community in these areas.

The problem is:
- Overstock
Some rare PBP figures can be found even on some US cards. Trilogo figures can already appear on ROTJ cards, etc
- Export
PBP, LL seemed to have some figures exported. These are also very common and can be find in large numbers everywhere in europe (PBP) and US (LL).
- Import
Again PBP also seemed to have Taiwan marked figures and LL figures imported to get the character numbers filled up. Maybe they were not able to produce them all on their own (PBP also produced other toys in this period). Maybe it was cheaper to do so, etc.


So if you talk about HK and Taiwan and China figures you can give examples where they have appeared, but you can not determine evrey HK Fett to a certain US, Europe, etc. card.
What we can do is to determine what figures appeared on LL, PBP, Glasslite and TT cards. BUT, and this is important, most coos they used arent unique! So you always need several characteristics to detremine these: Coo. plus material, plus color sheme, plus spray masks, etc.
In case of the LL figures the color shemes were even changed over the years. You can find several LL figures in more then one typical color sheme.

So this guide shows which coos are i.e. Ledy produced, but if there is noted also another variant below this coo you have to be carefull and need to check for other characteristics too!


BTW: I didnt mentioned Meccano at all, but we have to solve some myterys there too. On french Trilogo cards we have some specific variants in very, very small numbers (with unique coo). Are these really asian procuced?? Only sent to Meccano?? Or did even meccano started their own production in a very very late period??? Sound all very unusual... "

Thanks mate

But why does people then call some figures for meccano, palitoy, takara, PBP and Glasslite variants :scratch:

*This was written before I read Wolff's most recent post but I'll just leave it as is for now*

While I don't disagree with Wolff's wise words, isn't it a little defeatist to just say "your no coo figure 'could' have come from a number of different places" and leave it at that? If we'd said this from the beginning of variation collecting how would we 'know' that the "Meccano Boba Fett is unique to a Meccano produced Tri-Logo card" for example? Isn't it still better to list the cards and baggies these variants can be found in to see if there's a pattern? Sure the no coo figure may turn up in a Macau baggie and also a ROTJ Hong Kong card (and on a Trilogo etc.) but then at least we know it was made in Macau and perhaps also in Hong Kong at some point?

Pomse2001, without going back through old threads, checking my notes etc. I think:

Chewbacca is the non-LL variant found a lot in Europe. There was a thread somewhere with a bit more info. about the various cards that no coo Chewbaccas could be found on - maybe someone else could help us? I think this variant could at least be found on some Trilogo cards.

Leia is the "Pal variant". Meaning she's been found on some ESB & ROTJ Palitoy cards and some Trilogo's.

& I think the Hammerhead is found on Made In Spain cards, but a less blurry photo and some of our Spanish collectors might be more help than me?

Rog.

Because thats where they were packaged. Each area had their own packaging area. No figure has Made in Spain or Made in Great Britian. All of the figures were imported from the factories Kenner used to manufacture them and sent to the company releasing the figures in those countries..


_Rog_, you talking about this thread?

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t1138-chewbacca-focus-and-loose-collection

*Edited*

Chris_J wrote:

Because thats where they were packaged. Each area had their own packaging area. No figure has Made in Spain or Made in Great Britian. All of the figures were imported from the factories Kenner used to manufacture them and sent to the company releasing the figures in those countries..

Sorry Chris, I thought you were replying to me not Pomse2001. I do think finding out which cards & baggies our variants were packaged on and where they were packaged is interesting and worthwhile in itself. IMO all this info 'helps' to figure out where a variant was made (although is some cases, not so much).

I think perhaps the thread I was thinking of was the The TIG PBP/Poch Character discussion thread where a no coo Chewie was discussed on the first page, I thought however Pomse2001's Chewbacca was discussed as well. I'll keep searching...

Rog.

_Rog_ wrote:

*This was written before I read Wolff's most recent post but I'll just leave it as is for now*

While I don't disagree with Wolff's wise words, isn't it a little defeatist to just say "your no coo figure 'could' have come from a number of different places" and leave it at that? If we'd said this from the beginning of variation collecting how would we 'know' that the "Meccano Boba Fett is unique to a Meccano produced Tri-Logo card" for example? Isn't it still better to list the cards and baggies these variants can be found in to see if there's a pattern? Sure the no coo figure may turn up in a Macau baggie and also a ROTJ Hong Kong card (and on a Trilogo etc.) but then at least we know it was made in Macau and perhaps also in Hong Kong at some point?

Pomse2001, without going back through old threads, checking my notes etc. I think:

Chewbacca is the non-LL variant found a lot in Europe. There was a thread somewhere with a bit more info. about the various cards that no coo Chewbaccas could be found on - maybe someone else could help us? I think this variant could at least be found on some Trilogo cards.

Leia is the "Pal variant". Meaning she's been found on some ESB & ROTJ Palitoy cards and some Trilogo's.

& I think the Hammerhead is found on Made In Spain cards, but a less blurry photo and some of our Spanish collectors might be more help than me?

Rog.

Thanks rog, I think it is a good idea to try to find a pattern, when I buy a lot in Denmark from a sellers childhood collection. Then I ask if he can remember if all the figures is bought in Denmark or maybe imported from other countries. I also know Tri-logo, Kenner and Palitoy was sold in Denmark. But when I have bought enough childhood lots here in Denmark, then I maybe get a pattern of which variants there was sold in Denmark.

Thanks for the information about the figures.

Chris_J wrote:

Because thats where they were packaged. Each area had their own packaging area. No figure has Made in Spain or Made in Great Britian. All of the figures were imported from the factories Kenner used to manufacture them and sent to the company releasing the figures in those countries..


_Rog_, you talking about this thread?

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t1138-chewbacca-focus-and-loose-collection

Could it be that palitoy had a factory in china who maid those figures, Kenner had another factory in china who also maid the same figures. Meccano had a factory in china etc. etc. and then they did not always maid the figures 100% the same on each factory ?

I can't believe that Kenner, palitoy, meccano etc. etc. shared the same factory.

Maybe Kenner had too many figures and sold them to Palitoy and then Palitoy placed Kenner figures on Palitoy cards etc. etc.

Trying to figure this stuff out is like trying to figure out why the sky is blue. Theres just somethings you'll never figure out. Its like why did they erase or scar out the COO's on the figures when the cardback says its made in Taiwan or Hong Kong but released on a PBP or Palitoy card? Why not leave the COO on the figures like they did on all the others and why have some thats a no coo like that Chewy is? The only way that answer will come out is if employees from those areas come out and give the reason for it. Until that time comes, its going to be a mystery. I dont think we'll ever figure it out anytime soon.

Chris_J wrote:

Trying to figure this stuff out is like trying to figure out why the sky is blue.

I thought we'd figured that one out already

Chris_J wrote:

Theres just somethings you'll never figure out. Its like why did they erase or scar out the COO's on the figures when the cardback says its made in Taiwan or Hong Kong but released on a PBP or Palitoy card? Why not leave the COO on the figures like they did on all the others and why have some thats a no coo like that Chewy is? The only way that answer will come out is if employees from those areas come out and give the reason for it. Until that time comes, its going to be a mystery. I dont think we'll ever figure it out anytime soon.

Have some faith Chris, we'll get there!

Rog.

Chris_J wrote:

Trying to figure this stuff out is like trying to figure out why the sky is blue. Theres just somethings you'll never figure out. Its like why did they erase or scar out the COO's on the figures when the cardback says its made in Taiwan or Hong Kong but released on a PBP or Palitoy card? Why not leave the COO on the figures like they did on all the others and why have some thats a no coo like that Chewy is? The only way that answer will come out is if employees from those areas come out and give the reason for it. Until that time comes, its going to be a mystery. I dont think we'll ever figure it out anytime soon.

There must have been 1000's working with all those figures. Why does they not come out of the closet ?

Quote :

There must have been 1000's working with all those figures. Why does they not come out of the closet ?

It gets worse, Palitoy( for example ) didn't just get molds, inject plastic in them, paint them, card them up and distribute them. They contracted outside vendors to do certain parts of the whole process. I don't know how deep it goes, as in, was there a company that painted them another contracted to card them up? This is why it's hard to find ex-employee's, as they didn't all nessecarily work directly for Palitoy.
My boss's Dad worked for a company called Aubit Plastics which was ultimately bought by a firm called Hinckley Mouldings, they where contracted by Palitoy in the 80's to do the injection moulding process on StarWars toy's ( not sure which, he did have molds for Millinnium Falcon and AT-AT parts ) they then sent the parts off for essembly. They probably didn't produce every Star Wars toy in the line, there was probasbly several different Companies contracted to do different stuff.

Very complicated stuff involving not just alot of people, but alot of companies!

My head hurts! :scratch:

General Kahn wrote:

Quote :

There must have been 1000's working with all those figures. Why does they not come out of the closet ?

It gets worse, Palitoy( for example ) didn't just get molds, inject plastic in them, paint them, card them up and distribute them. They contracted outside vendors to do certain parts of the whole process. I don't know how deep it goes, as in, was there a company that painted them another contracted to card them up? This is why it's hard to find ex-employee's, as they didn't all nessecarily work directly for Palitoy.
My boss's Dad worked for a company called Aubit Plastics which was ultimately bought by a firm called Hinckley Mouldings, they where contracted by Palitoy in the 80's to do the injection moulding process on StarWars toy's ( not sure which, he did have molds for Millinnium Falcon and AT-AT parts ) they then sent the parts off for essembly. They probably didn't produce every Star Wars toy in the line, there was probasbly several different Companies contracted to do different stuff.

Very complicated stuff involving not just alot of people, but alot of companies!

My head hurts! :scratch:

And thats why it'll be so hard to nail down anything specific about where what was made and where. Just because its on a Palitoy, General Mills, Poch/PBP, or Toltoys cardback doesnt mean it was made in those areas where the cards are from.

General Kahn wrote:

Quote :

There must have been 1000's working with all those figures. Why does they not come out of the closet ?

It gets worse, Palitoy( for example ) didn't just get molds, inject plastic in them, paint them, card them up and distribute them. They contracted outside vendors to do certain parts of the whole process. I don't know how deep it goes, as in, was there a company that painted them another contracted to card them up? This is why it's hard to find ex-employee's, as they didn't all nessecarily work directly for Palitoy.
My boss's Dad worked for a company called Aubit Plastics which was ultimately bought by a firm called Hinckley Mouldings, they where contracted by Palitoy in the 80's to do the injection moulding process on StarWars toy's ( not sure which, he did have molds for Millinnium Falcon and AT-AT parts ) they then sent the parts off for essembly. They probably didn't produce every Star Wars toy in the line, there was probasbly several different Companies contracted to do different stuff.

Very complicated stuff involving not just alot of people, but alot of companies!

My head hurts! :scratch:

Oh I thought one figure was maid on the same factory. So the head on a figure is maid on one factory, the left arm on another factory, the right arm on another factory the body on another factory etc. etc. ?

Quote :

And thats why it'll be so hard to nail down anything specific about where what was made and where. Just because its on a Palitoy, General Mills, Poch/PBP, or Toltoys cardback doesnt mean it was made in those areas where the cards are from.

Very hard indeed. So far in my Bespin Luke research I've found 20 unique variations of the actual figure, and 10 of them can definately be found on Palitoy cards with potentially 2 more possibilities, and that's just Palitoy, all of those 12 can also be found on various other cards from all over Europe ( PBP, Meccano, Clipper, Tri-Logo etc. etc ) 4 of those 12 have Hong Kong COO's as well which naturally of cousre can also be found on Kenner cards. There is also 2 more of that 20 which can be found in baggies which are almost certainly from Europe somewhere. So that's 14 out of 20 Bespin Luke variations that can be found in Europe!

Lars, my advice here, just chalk your Chewie, Leia and Hammerhead up as potentially from Europe and spare your self a never ending head ache!

Quote :

Oh I thought one figure was maid on the same factory. So the head on a figure is maid on one factory, the left arm on another factory, the right arm on another factory the body on another factory etc. etc. ?

Not sure of how many specific parts where made in one place, but more than likely it would have been several.

General Kahn wrote:

Quote :

And thats why it'll be so hard to nail down anything specific about where what was made and where. Just because its on a Palitoy, General Mills, Poch/PBP, or Toltoys cardback doesnt mean it was made in those areas where the cards are from.

Very hard indeed. So far in my Bespin Luke research I've found 20 unique variations of the actual figure, and 10 of them can definately be found on Palitoy cards with potentially 2 more possibilities, and that's just Palitoy, all of those 12 can also be found on various other cards from all over Europe ( PBP, Meccano, Clipper, Tri-Logo etc. etc ) 4 of those 12 have Hong Kong COO's as well which naturally of cousre can also be found on Kenner cards. There is also 2 more of that 20 which can be found in baggies which are almost certainly from Europe somewhere. So that's 14 out of 20 Bespin Luke variations that can be found in Europe!

Lars, my advice here, just chalk your Chewie, Leia and Hammerhead up as potentially from Europe and spare your self a never ending head ache!

Quote :

Oh I thought one figure was maid on the same factory. So the head on a figure is maid on one factory, the left arm on another factory, the right arm on another factory the body on another factory etc. etc. ?

Not sure of how many specific parts where made in one place, but more than likely it would have been several.

Hi Kahn, I already have the head ache!

I think I will go to

Thanks for the help Kahn

I do believe all the parts for certain figures were made at the same place. I dont know where you got the idea the head was made here, the arms there and the legs in Cairo, Egypt. Give this a read and maybe you can understand a bit on how a figure was made.

http://www.12back.com/features/creation/creation.php3

And heres some other interesting reads to go with it.

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t930520/

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t962730/

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t807015/

Maybe these will help out so all of us dont have headaches anymore.