Joe_O wrote:

Having an escape route to the variation madness was a good thing in the beginning but lately this place is turning into The Imperial Variant Gunnery, which quite rightly feels like when you move from one area because of bad neighbours and then similarly annoying neighbours move in right next door... I know variants are collected and are still "hot" but I guess some of us are just bored of nice and interesting forums turning into discussions about crap like this.

This makes me visit this forum less and less to be honest.

Hey guys,

Thank you all for your postive feedback.

Joe_O wrote:

Thank GOD! Long overdue this was

You are welcome Joe, but why not just call me Marco, like the others do?

aussiejames wrote:

Limbs & torsos are made from different plastics & hence can discolour differently.

Good point AJ! I added this sentence to the first post.

Chris_J wrote:

Marco, great idea. I was going to do something similar to this yesterday with nothing but links from RS, but couldnt get into the mood for it. Dont know if it will help or not, but do you think we should have a list of links to go with this? If so, I'll sit down and hunt for some to post in here.

Good idea Chris to add some relevant RS references. Just a few will do, I think. I hope you can find them with RS's new search function.

Wolff, thanks a lot for adding some valuable info.

wbobafett wrote:

2. The case of mixed limbs!
In generall you can think of decoloration of the plastic as a chain reaction! Once started no way to stop it! The first initiation can happen by "accident" or a "weak structure" or another batch of plastic.

Degradation of the plastic is a chain reaction indeed. I wonder whether this is also the case for the degradation of the pigments in the plastic. You got any idea?

wbobafett wrote:

3. The case of variants that are discolored but IMO are variants
You have the prune and the lightlimbed Boba fett! There is special variants of these discolorations with certain coos and color sheme in the face that cannot be found undiscolored. I have to think of more examples but there is definatley some figures you wont find undiscolored! So these are variants...coo...whatever....and these are discolored...of course....but can you find them like they left the factory??? NO...YOU CANT! So how to deal with these??
A huge problem IMO.

A wrote a piece about this in the first post, tell me what you think about it. Bottom line: all figures which have a different appearance compared to when they left the factory, are transformants. So it might be that some figures can only be obtained as transformant nowadays, like the examples you give above.

Dr Dengar wrote:

Note: The appearance of a ‘degradant’ might be traced back to the exact composition of (a specific batch of) factory used materials (plastic, paint) in combination with an used mould, COO. Still that doesn’t make them true variants IMO.
- Example 1: Take the green limbs Chewie for instance. I am not an expert on this, but I think he was found only with certain COOs. So probably the green limbs Chewie can be traced back to a factory which used batches of brown plastic with a (slightly) different composition in which the red pigment was more prone to degradation, giving rise to green limbs after 30 years. Still this figure is a transformant not a true variant IMO. Why? Cause he did not leave the factory with green limbs thirty years ago.
- Example 2 (a tougher one ): The green neck Leia Bespin. In this figure the metals in the applied gold paint reacted chemically over the years resulting in a green neck. In this case the green neck can be linked directly to the used gold paint, so you might argue, this is a true variant. But it is not IMO. Why? Cause the green neck Leia never left the factory in her current condition thirty years ago, so this figure is a transformant too. If you would have a gold neck Leia in your hands in 2011, it would off course be a different story, that figure would be a true variant, as she represents the Leia that the factory intended to produce in the 80s.

wbobafett wrote:

4. Yellowing
Plastic is an organic material! The "color" appears (without pigment) if you have alternating double bonds on c-chains! The color that it looks like depens on the number of aleternating double bonds. So a plastic can also discolor red or in another color. the fact that most white plastics go yellow is this is the easiest way and need less energy!

I agree totally! I added some extra text under "Yellowing" in the 1st post.

wbobafett wrote:

5. The list:
This list is endless! So Imo its not worth to start, but for sure have a try!
Besides the common discolorations, you can have massive and also rare and heavy strange apperiences on some characters! If we keep it common Ill have for sure another 50 to add.....but I need some time to gather it! LOL

I think it would be good to have a list of the common transformants which are sometimes taken for true variants. Fifty sounds good.

wbobafett wrote:

7. Spotty figures
This has nothging to do with degradation or fading! This is simply something you can spot on your shower curtain! Its mushrooms destroying the plastic! The recrement of these discolors the plastic!

Indeed this is fungal bioterrorism on our vintage collections. I added a paragraph "A special transformation....Biotransformation". Tell me what you think about it pls.

_Rog_ wrote:

I’m also not too keen on “variations suck” posts, or “variation collecting is mad” sometimes followed by “hear hear” or “x2”s, or being called a “bad / annoying neighbour” Joe lol. I’m not about to lose sleep over it but it just creates the wrong atmosphere IMO and makes variation collectors feel more apathetic about contributing. There seems to have been a drop off over on RS of active variation guys posting after similar comments in threads about variation collecting. Over there a lot of variation threads IMO are now answered poorly, it would be a shame if in a year or so it was the same here on TIG.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts Rog. I am sure TIG will continue to be a safe heaven for variant collectors. I hope this thread can contribute a little bit to get more threads discussing true variants and helps to dismiss all non productive discussions about discolored figures.

_Rog_ wrote:

It has been suggested however (in that thread) that compiling a list of ‘Degradants / Transformants’ helps legitimise said figures and will make collectors waste more money trying to collect them. I guess it’s up to you Marco to make the judgement call...

Best thing to do IMO would be to fully inform (new) collectors on the differences between true variants and transformants. That also includes disclosing the most common transformnats. It is then up to the individual collector to make a judgement to collect these or not.

Reply to ROG-
One thing to remember though Rog with regard to my posts lately, however I or others feel about variations in general (some don't mind it, some equally couldn't give a rats ass etc) my post in this thread and in others were not really aimed at loose variant discussion in general (even if sometimes it takes over) but in fact more towards this increasing trend of believing or wanting to believe that repainted or degraded figures are now some super cool variant.

I am all for COO research and things that make Star Wars collecting easier for everyone who collects, I back Wolffs guide for example which in time will mean that even more COO knowledge will be out there for people to pop on a forum and say "what is this and where did it come from" and the COO guide will give them 90% of the answers they are looking for.

On a community level, I helped Uli once find a certain COO within my figures that he was missing and got it to him and I would do so again for anyone that genuinely wanted a certain COO if I had it, I know now what I have and it was quite fun writing down all the different COO's and seeing what I had.

Staying with the research that benefits the community- I also enjoyed all the work that went into properly establishing the Meccano no COO fett as an accepted and known variant outside of the 5-10 people who had already found one and knew what it was but hadn't really pushed that info out there to others.

On the flip side, I don't care for 8 different threads on tan limbs, green limbs, funny coloured capes and whatever else and hardly any on actual Kenner history, Prototypes, pre production, guides on how to repair things, vehicles, or even just a few funny threads once in a while, it seems if its not something variation related to loose figures it doesn't get posted. As a result the discussions and threads have evolved into people posting about figures that aren't even variants we end up with this thread!

Maybe there needs to be a degradation variation forum (joke lol)

I know I come across sometimes as a hater but I think if you look back over the various posts in the last few discussions I went into each of them quoting the same thread as yourself and hoping it would help the situation, however people just come back with "well that taught me nothing I still think my boba with three pink limbs is a variant" how can you possibly reply to that and keep calm? lol

Anyways, I am all for people collecting whatever they want to, but they must and I keep stressing this- understand WHAT they are collecting. These are not variants and its people that take it too far and don't listen to help that help to paint a really shitty picture of the entire "variant" collector group which of course means that the rest of you guys that are smart and can work these things out sensibly get treated the same sometimes.

Marco, I'll work on it tonight and PM you what I find so it wont get lost in all of this. If possible, I wouldnt mind finding one for each figure thats a main problem with fading/ degrading/ transforment (still dont care for that one. ) to have posted in here.

_Rog_, I understand what your talking about. COO's to me is a variant, always has been, since its something that actually came from a factory like that. I dont link them with discolored figures in no way, shape or form. Im all for Wolffs guide and hope that one day he will be able to finish it. But my gripe is when someone asks for your opinion on something and you give it, they spit in your face and tell you you dont know what your talking about, it has to be a variant because it looks different. And the more they act like a child about it, it gets under the skin and you start acting like one also. Look at all the variant threads from 3-4 years ago on RS. The big guys I learned from was saying the same thing Im doing now. But where are most of those guys now? They left or dont post as much because of threads like that. You can only tell so many people about what they have before it starts to get repeative. And that is a buzz kill having to say the same thing over and over. Thats why theres so many now saying everything is a variant because no one is there to help them with it so they can understand that maybe its not. They can collect what they want, but when they ask for an opinion if the tan arm, purple leg, orange body, pink head, half fluffy skunk cape Klaatu is a variant, and someone says no, theres no need in having a fit over it and throw a tantrum becuase some guy on Ebay said it was the newest variant when its not. That brings up the next point.

One of the worst problems now, and even back 3-4 years ago, is that newer members, whether here or RS, wont take the time to search for a moment to find the info they are looking for. Like in the Stormy with the number on the feet thread. It took me no longer than 2 minutes using the new search function on RS to find the thread I link in it. I even still go back to read old threads on things before I ask anything to make sure it hasnt been asked before. The SWCA is even there with a ton of info on everything out there. But with todays collectors its more of a "I want it now" mentality that doing even a few minutes research on their own is like asking them for a million dollar loan. Its just not going to happen. The biggest thing I always heard was do your own research/ homework. I know it sounds rude, but if anyone can take 10-15 minutes to write a post about a new variant they found, they could do the same looking up old posts to find the same info. Then if you still dont understand it, ask then and link to what you looked at to help along the answer. It couldve been there, but you missed it some how. Thats why I like to link threads where possible to help the questioner out with the answer. Most times its not possible to find one quick enough.

Joe, Marco, Emiel,

Thanks for replying & for your comments on variation collecting and discoloured figures. I do hope with a thread like this to link to when non-variation degradation threads pop up, unnecessary / annoying discussion about this subject will disappear. Hopefully then the ratio between actual variation threads & "actual Kenner history, Prototypes, pre production, guides on how to repair things, vehicles, or even just a few funny threads" will be more balanced. I'd love to read more threads like those than ones discussing discolouration and I'm sure all other members would too (I spend most of my time over on RS reading old non-variation threads nowadays). Hopefully 'we' won't then lose you Emile and similarly variation collectors won't feel like leaving from any 'negativity' towards their chosen area of collecting. I completely understand how real variation threads don't interest a lot of collectors but people being negative in/about them isn't very constructive, it would be loads better IMO to start a new thread about something you do want to discuss.

I think what annoys me most is the belief that discolouration goes hand in hand with variation collecting. That variation guys love discoloured figures, will pay large sums of money for them, and ultimately all think they are actual variations and that discolouration threads are variation threads or at least are the 'fault' of variation collectors. When Joe you comment about too many variation threads & the variation madness, it reads (to me) as though you're complaining about real variation discussion rather than variation discussion + discolouration discussion + torso/mould cavity number discussion + etc. etc. & I know Joe you aren't a hater of variation collectors/collecting and that you support genuine country of origin research. I apologise if any comments I've made suggested otherwise (I of course am a big fan of all the good work you do / have done for variant and non-variation collectors). It is frustrating when your help gets ignored, I did see you post the RS discoloration link in a few threads (unfortunately it was 'dismissed'?) but I thought it needed to be in this thread too. I also couldn't agree more with your statement that collectors NEED to "understand WHAT they are collecting" be it variations, prototypes, bootlegs, discoloured figures Top Toys moulds etc etc.

Finally Marco, (apologies for derailing your thread slightly) I'm 100% on your side of the fence when it comes to informing (new) collectors on the differences between true variants and transformants. Present them with as much info as you can and let them decide.

Rog.


PS. Is a degradation variation forum a place for variation collectors to discuss discoloured figures (no thanks!) or a place for non-variation collectors to discuss the degeneration of variation collecting (again, no thanks!)

Chris_J wrote:

_Rog_, I understand what your talking about. COO's to me is a variant, always has been, since its something that actually came from a factory like that. I dont link them with discolored figures in no way, shape or form. Im all for Wolffs guide and hope that one day he will be able to finish it. But my gripe is when someone asks for your opinion on something and you give it, they spit in your face and tell you you dont know what your talking about, it has to be a variant because it looks different. And the more they act like a child about it, it gets under the skin and you start acting like one also. Look at all the variant threads from 3-4 years ago on RS. The big guys I learned from was saying the same thing Im doing now. But where are most of those guys now? They left or dont post as much because of threads like that. You can only tell so many people about what they have before it starts to get repeative. And that is a buzz kill having to say the same thing over and over. Thats why theres so many now saying everything is a variant because no one is there to help them with it so they can understand that maybe its not. They can collect what they want, but when they ask for an opinion if the tan arm, purple leg, orange body, pink head, half fluffy skunk cape Klaatu is a variant, and someone says no, theres no need in having a fit over it and throw a tantrum becuase some guy on Ebay said it was the newest variant when its not.

Thanks Chris,

and I understand & completely agree with what you are saying I also attribute the "variation" threads from 3-4 years ago on RS to collectors leaving / posting less (I'd also include a lot of proper variation collectors in that number as well). It is a shame when any collector doesn't feel like contributing as much. Hopefully this forum and thread will learn / benefit from the 3-4 year old RS threads!

Chris_J wrote:

One of the worst problems now, and even back 3-4 years ago, is that newer members, whether here or RS, wont take the time to search for a moment to find the info they are looking for. Like in the Stormy with the number on the feet thread. It took me no longer than 2 minutes using the new search function on RS to find the thread I link in it. I even still go back to read old threads on things before I ask anything to make sure it hasnt been asked before. The SWCA is even there with a ton of info on everything out there. But with todays collectors its more of a "I want it now" mentality that doing even a few minutes research on their own is like asking them for a million dollar loan. Its just not going to happen. The biggest thing I always heard was do your own research/ homework. I know it sounds rude, but if anyone can take 10-15 minutes to write a post about a new variant they found, they could do the same looking up old posts to find the same info. Then if you still dont understand it, ask then and link to what you looked at to help along the answer. It couldve been there, but you missed it some how. Thats why I like to link threads where possible to help the questioner out with the answer. Most times its not possible to find one quick enough.

Again, complete agreement here

Night,
Rog.

Exactly. I hate to see anyone leave the hobby over trivial stuff like this, but it does happen. And when it does, the knowledge they had goes with them. Then what? Someone has to start all over with it and that has to fall on the next guy to help the newer guys.

I just spent about 15-20 minutes digging on RS for 10 of the best threads for Marco to link in this thread. The range is from certain figures to pink figures, spotted figures, forms of dicoloration and discolored/fake accessories. The main ones which I think will solve alot of questions is ones on the green snake Yoda and the grey/tan limb Klaatus.

One more LONG thread before bed

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1048112/

I skipped over that one. That is one of the best threads on speckled figures. Plus theres a couple of good threads linked in that one also

Joe_O wrote:

One more LONG thread before bed

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1048112/

NNNOOOOOOOOO!!!!! lol
I had managed to erase that thread from my memorybanks.

I'd just like to say that as a mod here I'm gonna be a lot harder on guys starting pointless threads, that can easily be researched. The current crop of discoloration type threads are just one example of this (but a good one). I love my variants as much as anyone, but even I'm starting to skip them.

BE WARNED!!

I added some links to interesting reads about discoloration in general or on specific figures (in the 1st post).

Thanks Chris for looking them all up!!!

Chris is showing some great Librarian tendencies recently, eh m8?

The interesting thing here is IMO: people who alreday do have knowledge took part. The problem may stay, because noobs tend to not read complicated and long threads...LOL.

Ah whatever....just a thought.


Marco...even the more common discolorations are heavy numbered!

Ill try a few (maybe the ones that laso anoy my most )

- Luke Framboy with any kind of pants/boots in greenish tone.
- Ben spotted limbs, also jawa and wicket
- green limbs (even head and/or torso) on Hammerhead, Chewie, ben, wicket, jawa.......most famous on chewie and ben
- green torso...most famous on Fett (so called green backpack variant)

- metallic hair on Leia, Chewie pouch, leia bespin...and more
- golden chrome on r2, DSD etc
- green paint on chrome of r2...IMO mots Taiwans are jjust discolored
- 2-1b with grey head
- all figures with painted hands: pale hands or yellow hands! ...with exceptions on some of course
- all figures with painted face...just the same..with exceptions on some of course
- all figures with molded face: pale face
- silver c3po
- green painted Dengar
- green chestplate Zuckuss
- yellow/green snake on Yoda
- green boots on RC
- grey macau Logray
- pale limbs Max rebo


OMG...this is endless!...

Ill now read about the new additions on the first post

wbobafett wrote:

The interesting thing here is IMO: people who alreday do have knowledge took part. The problem may stay, because noobs tend to not read complicated and long threads...LOL.

And thats the reason why I dug up those links for Marco. It seems its getting harder and harder for some newer guys to be able to search for an old thread before they dive into a thread and start posting away. You know this from your start on RS, Wolff. The biggest thing any of the older guys will tell you is to do some research on what your collecting. If you still dont understand then ask away. Now its more like ask and dont check. Its all out there, just takes a few minutes to find. I even still go back to check out old threads to see if the info is out there on what Im into. Its a learning process from day 1 to day 100. New things come up almost everyday in this hobby.

And another to add to the list is the marble limbed Fetts. Ive had them and when I bought the 4-5 I had, they were listed as variants.

I agree...but I have also to add: Rs guys are mostly wrong (and I mean totally wrong) on some european variants!

I always skip threads like the tan limbed Klaatu! Fo me its important to know he has different moldcolor on the head...and the tan limbs just go with it! The tan limbs do exist....I know for sure...why read?

The next one is the greened haired Madine...a simple and very common figure in europe. US peepz always try to out him as discoloration...and thats simply wrong!

There is more examples...The so called "inner circle" ,that is by now nearly not excisting anymore, always treid to disagree on some real varaints also!

The problem really is that this fact, and the feact of incoming noob questions does harm the standing of the real varaint collectors! Most of them are gone by now! And others like me gave up on....well...trying to help or educate.....

If the genereal tendency will go on, IMO we will all be gone and the circle starts new...as you said....the wisdom will be gone, and will be build up again!

Sad...if you ask me!

Capetown wrote:

This makes me visit this forum less and less to be honest.

You took the words right out of my mouth Emiel!

I was feeling the same & when i logged in,all i used to see was loads of threads about variants & as i have no real interest in them,i had nothing to contribute so congrats to Marco & all the other variant guys who have contributed to this thread!

Obviously new things turn up all the time & will need to be discussed but if i ever see another thread about a green limbs chewie,i'm sending Sgt Hugo Stiglitz round to the thread starter!

Great thread Marco
This one was much needed

In my opinion a discoloration is nothing more than that
same for the fading limbs figures.

I am not a newbie when it come's to collecting,but yes i am a newbie when it comes to forums and posting
so i still have a lot of catching up to do

But the discoloration or not threads are getting boring.
it's all out there already

I agree new things will turn up and will be discussed
I hope not a other discoloration figure


like to add this one ;

potf anakin green(discoloration)vest

hmmmm...are you sure this one didnt left the factory as it is???...I dont know....

wbobafett wrote:

hmmmm...are you sure this one didnt left the factory as it is???...I dont know....

not sure any more joke

Well I searche debay and found one for just 40 pounds buy-it-now!! What a douche this seller was. Im now proudly the owner of a very rare variant!! HAHA...you all have to search it now...I have one...Suck on that b++++!!

Mark, Emiel: I understand what you mean, and I hope we can keep discussions about discolored figures in check from now on.

Wolff: Many thanks for your list of degraded figures. I will put the new ones in the 1st post at a later moment.

StarWizz: I will also add the Anakin 'transformant' to the growing list. Thx!

Dark green torso Greedo

Nice one AJ!

It looks like the yellowing of the plastic resulted in a darker green torso here.

Same story for the Anakin with green vest.

Hi Marco, great thread. Just what I was missing

With all the great info in this thread I've been having another look at my collection. I now realise that these are all down to discolouration, the 2 on the left are no COO the other 5 are Taiwan, The picture is not great but in hand these are all quite different. In the pic you can see the discolouration of the plastic which has made it darker and also affected the faces.