finestcomics wrote:

Glad to hear a resolution is in sight.

As a footnote to this whole situation, I have to mention that the request to declare a lower value is definitely something that should have been brought up by Cristian. The practice is not only frowned upon, but it puts the seller in a risky situation where they can't insure the item otherwise the insurance will contradict the declared value.

Ordinarily when a buyer asks this of a seller, the seller pretty much has the right to waive responsibility if anything happens to the parcel (i.e. damaged or lost). Not taking sides, but I think this is an important thing to mention when describing the details of a problem transaction in a watch out thread.

Frowned upon? Come on... I know the States have allmost no customs problems regarding value on packages, but there are also other reasons for a low value declaration. Sometimes the value is stated on the shippingmanifest, great way to attract attention. I know it officialy is some sort of mailfraude (though I'm not sure were the offence is committed, in the country of the sender (where the value is of no concern) or the country of the reciever (where the value is of concern for duties)), but not the biggest. To be honest I have never met anyone in the hobby that wouldn't do it (but I did knew that, so that's not objective).

The only risk with a low value declaration is that if the package gets lost the buyer is only entitled to the amount that was marked on the package ('cause that's the only value a seller can redeem at the postoffice). It's the risk of the buyer and not the seller. Though when it comes to dealing with someone you don't know and the sale went through ebay for example then the seller is at risk with a paypalpayment (non gift). That can be balanced by a giftpayment if a buyer wishes a low value declaration. The buyer then has no was to get back on the deal. His choice: either a low value declaration and giftpayment or normal value and regular payment. The tracking on the package will do the rest. If the tracking fails (like when the proof of shipment is lost) then the seller should be held responsible for the full amount, 'cause without proof of shipment who can tell if the item was realy shipped (to be clear: I'm not talking about the situation in this thread, just in general).

-Alex

AJ_van_Zelst wrote:

finestcomics wrote:

Glad to hear a resolution is in sight.

As a footnote to this whole situation, I have to mention that the request to declare a lower value is definitely something that should have been brought up by Cristian. The practice is not only frowned upon, but it puts the seller in a risky situation where they can't insure the item otherwise the insurance will contradict the declared value.

Ordinarily when a buyer asks this of a seller, the seller pretty much has the right to waive responsibility if anything happens to the parcel (i.e. damaged or lost). Not taking sides, but I think this is an important thing to mention when describing the details of a problem transaction in a watch out thread.

Frowned upon? Come on... I know the States have allmost no customs problems regarding value on packages, but there are also other reasons for a low value declaration. Sometimes the value is stated on the shippingmanifest, great way to attract attention. I know it officialy is some sort of mailfraude (though I'm not sure were the offence is committed, in the country of the sender (where the value is of no concern) or the country of the reciever (where the value is of concern for duties)), but not the biggest. To be honest I have never met anyone in the hobby that wouldn't do it (but I did knew that, so that's not objective).

The only risk with a low value declaration is that if the package gets lost the buyer is only entitled to the amount that was marked on the package ('cause that's the only value a seller can redeem at the postoffice). It's the risk of the buyer and not the seller. Though when it comes to dealing with someone you don't know and the sale went through ebay for example then the seller is at risk with a paypalpayment (non gift). That can be balanced by a giftpayment if a buyer wishes a low value declaration. The buyer then has no was to get back on the deal. His choice: either a low value declaration and giftpayment or normal value and regular payment. The tracking on the package will do the rest. If the tracking fails (like when the proof of shipment is lost) then the seller should be held responsible for the full amount, 'cause without proof of shipment who can tell if the item was realy shipped (to be clear: I'm not talking about the situation in this thread, just in general).

-Alex

It's tax avoidance or flat out fraud, take your pick. If you don't believe me, call up a customs agency in your country of choice and ask them what they think about the idea of declaring a lower value. Whether I agree with charging duties on vintage items is another thing altogether, and I didn't want to play customs or shipment cop here, I just wanted describe the risk the seller was put in to abide by the buyers request.

This sounded like a cash deal, so the PayPal protection scenario is a non-factor, and tracking will do nothing to protect anyone, especially since the request to declare a lower value of $30 would contradict what would otherwise be the insured value of $700.

I personally wouldn't take the risk of sending a $700 dollar item without insurance, and would tell the buyer to suck it up if duties was an issue. At least if some customs official or package handler slobbers over the value and the item mysteriously disappears or is lost, the buyer will be compensated. And there are services which are more reliable to avoid that sort of thing.

It comes down to avoiding costs and apart from these stated risks, all I'm saying is that Cristian should have mentioned he asked to have the item shipped with a lower declared value because as far as I'm concerned, its on the buyer if something happens to the item.

While the customs/insurance issue is what it is, I can see both sides of it The point is that I BELIEVE Cristian when he says that he didn't get the piece. I knew where there was another one in similar condition and did what I had to do. Out of THOUSANDS of deals I've likely lost hundreds of tracking forms/customs declaration forms etc etc (some I've found years later while clearing out various compartments in my desk, car and even jacket pockets). I'm sadly not a very organized person at times, ESP in times of stress. BUT, packages have always arrived, so my lack of organization hasn't bitten me in the ass too badly thru the years . On the buying end I've had high dollar packages(with low declared values) a few from Mexico and one from Italy go MIA and have either eaten or split the loss with the seller. I can only apologize to Cristian for the delays. There are many reasons why I haven't been around consistently since Sept, some documented in this thread, some not.

Cheers
Joe

Customs is a tricky business. Almost all my foreign buyers want a low declared value. The problem is that if something gets lost (or even appears to be lost) you get into a debate about recoup value. I can only insure to the declare value. So if I shipped a $2000 item and declared $100, I can only get $100 from the post office.

My simple rule is that I try to help buyers but the onus is completely on them

finestcomics wrote:

that Cristian should have mentioned he asked to have the item shipped with a lower declared value because as far as I'm concerned, its on the buyer if something happens to the item.

That is the main part I don't agree with you. If the actual act of a registered shipping of an item with a low declared value can't be proven (because the proof of shipment was lost) then that can't be held against the buyer, wether or not the value of the item was fully declared. If you can't proof it shipped, then from any legal point-of-view it didn't ship. Only when the item is damaged or lost, and the shipping can be proven, it's the buyers problem ('cause he waved his security of compensation for the low value declaration). Only then he's not entitled to any compensation beyond the low declared value. You are mixing registered shipping and insurred shipping. The two are not the same and any fault in one doesn't automaticly envolve the other.

-Alex

AJ_van_Zelst wrote:

finestcomics wrote:

that Cristian should have mentioned he asked to have the item shipped with a lower declared value because as far as I'm concerned, its on the buyer if something happens to the item.

That is the main part I don't agree with you. If the actual act of a registered shipping of an item with a low declared value can't be proven (because the proof of shipment was lost) then that can't be held against the buyer, wether or not the value of the item was fully declared. If you can't proof it shipped, then from any legal point-of-view it didn't ship. Only when the item is damaged or lost, and the shipping can be proven, it's the buyers problem ('cause he waved his security of compensation for the low value declaration). Only then he's not entitled to any compensation beyond the low declared value. You are mixing registered shipping and insurred shipping. The two are not the same and any fault in one doesn't automaticly envolve the other.

-Alex

On technicality, I don't even think insurance would have mattered unless you have the original tracking form/receipt as proof you paid. There are many technicalities to cite, but assuming these are both stand-up individuals, what this comes down to is Cristian saying he didn't trust Joseph's word, but not being forthcoming about all the details, especially in requesting a lower declared value. That in my opinion changes everything, because if we assume Joseph did ship it, then the parcel is either lost or still making its way (and yes, it happens that months pass and the item mysteriously appears - just ask krohlf).

The only way anything you're saying would apply is if you were alleging Joseph never shipped it. As I've said on RS, this doesn't appear to be the typical scammage we hear about day in/out, it's a long-standing member who is going through some rough times (and hope things to be turning around).

How many times do we see watch out's where the OP fails to exclude an important detail? In this case, I understand Cristian's frustration, but coming here and complaining about the item/transaction being in limbo and questioning Joseph was like yelling at a bank because you forgot to take the cash you withdrew with you from the ATM. I just don't see him owning up to or accepting any responsibility here, and if what Joseph is saying is true, then the onus was on Cristian.

I'm certainly not blaming Cristian for his frustration. I was months late in getting the box shipped in the first place. I've been sporadic in my communication. I'm certainly not shifting any of the blame or responsibility (IF I'd been able to locate the customs form, I'd likely have handled it a bit differently, but w.o proof, and knowing that Cristian's always been a straight shooter, I'm SOL . The customs/insurance thing, I've been on both sides, and getting wacked with a huge import duty sucks.

Piece should be in his hands within a week, and that's the important thing.

Joe

Joseph_Y wrote:

The customs/insurance thing, I've been on both sides, and getting wacked with a huge import duty sucks.

I have too. And I didn't intend for this to be the main part of my comment, because I'm indifferent to the whole exercise of charging duties on an item that has already been taxed on original purchase. I just paid $100+ on a $700 eBay win so I know how much it can sting. This isn't the time or place for a broader discussion on the subject of duties - the main thing I was saying is that we each have a responsibility to be forthcoming with details, especially when it's a watch out discussion. I think omitting it from the details of the transaction makes it difficult to see both sides clearly, and I'm glad you eventually addressed the matter the way you did. I don't know too many sellers that would send a second item without debate over recouping the value from the first one.

It's based on the character of the buyer, known him for a while and have had good dealings with previously,and the fact that I couldn't provide definitive proof that I'd sent the first. As well, knowing where there was another one that was almost as nice (a little more edge wear here and there), and the fact that I only had to trade for it helps too.

J

finestcomics wrote:

AJ_van_Zelst wrote:

finestcomics wrote:

that Cristian should have mentioned he asked to have the item shipped with a lower declared value because as far as I'm concerned, its on the buyer if something happens to the item.

That is the main part I don't agree with you. If the actual act of a registered shipping of an item with a low declared value can't be proven (because the proof of shipment was lost) then that can't be held against the buyer, wether or not the value of the item was fully declared. If you can't proof it shipped, then from any legal point-of-view it didn't ship. Only when the item is damaged or lost, and the shipping can be proven, it's the buyers problem ('cause he waved his security of compensation for the low value declaration). Only then he's not entitled to any compensation beyond the low declared value. You are mixing registered shipping and insurred shipping. The two are not the same and any fault in one doesn't automaticly envolve the other.

-Alex

On technicality, I don't even think insurance would have mattered unless you have the original tracking form/receipt as proof you paid. There are many technicalities to cite, but assuming these are both stand-up individuals, what this comes down to is Cristian saying he didn't trust Joseph's word, but not being forthcoming about all the details, especially in requesting a lower declared value. That in my opinion changes everything, because if we assume Joseph did ship it, then the parcel is either lost or still making its way (and yes, it happens that months pass and the item mysteriously appears - just ask krohlf).

The only way anything you're saying would apply is if you were alleging Joseph never shipped it. As I've said on RS, this doesn't appear to be the typical scammage we hear about day in/out, it's a long-standing member who is going through some rough times (and hope things to be turning around).

How many times do we see watch out's where the OP fails to exclude an important detail? In this case, I understand Cristian's frustration, but coming here and complaining about the item/transaction being in limbo and questioning Joseph was like yelling at a bank because you forgot to take the cash you withdrew with you from the ATM. I just don't see him owning up to or accepting any responsibility here, and if what Joseph is saying is true, then the onus was on Cristian.

I think we should agree to disagree. From what I gather I'm not going to convince you and I know you won't convince me.

-Alex

Joseph_Y wrote:

Carlos; Gatekeeper, whatever your name is this week, I never said I wouldn't try to even us out,but when I mentioned my being leary due to your well documented history of claiming items never arrived to you, from other sellers, then having pics of those items showing up in your collection at a later point, you seemed to clam up pretty quickly. I kinda took that as most would have and just moved on.

Now it seems you're going to use this situation with Cristian, to try to get stuff out of me via the current negative public opinion of me in the hobby....Fine lets see what you want out of me.I'm getting rid of most of my licensed stuff so...lets see...
The situation w. Cristian, was part shit luck, and part bad timing in my life/stuff not getting out on time. You want to email me, we can talk. But Cristian, I know is an honest person, which is why I went out of my way to make good on my deal with him. A bit later than either of us would have liked, but done and settled, and when all is done I'm out a few pieces that added up to more than the R2 I initally sold him cost, just to make sure that he got what he paid for.

Joe

Joseph, i can't believe how twisted you are in your response...

Yes, Gatekeeper; It's clearly stated in my RS signature... I don't know what problem you have with that??

I really thought i had forgotten that episode with you, and believe me i tried, but when i see that you still using that same kind of b@llsh@t with other people, it makes me remember how painfull is to loose $1600.

Please, don't come now with my supposed history of claiming items... I always worked solutions to solve a problem when it appears, not like you, hidding behing your well know collector's ego. And if you know a single person who still waiting an items from me, please, don't hesitate and say his name high and clear...

Joseph_Y wrote:

...then having pics of those items showing up in your collection at a later point

Please Joseph, show me these pics, post or what ever you have in mind. ¿or maybe you also lost them with the shipping receip you supposed to show me with the tracking number???

Man, don't try to flip the situation. This post is about you and your not so ethical way to do business. You are the faulty person here, not me.

I can prove the money i send you and all the e-mails asking you to give a single little TRACKING NUMBER, just THAT... Nothing else!!!!
I never ask you a refund, nor send me other figures. I just wanted to know where the hell these figures are. Maybe i could do something if they were stucked at the custom here in Spain... but nothing.

I am enough open minded to accept the fact that the box lost in transit. I can accept that, really. But when you come and say that your post office keeps the receips for just 15 days and then descard them... let me doubt. Here in Spain, an almost third-world and backward country, we still able to track a receip for years... beleive me, FOR YEARS!!!! So don't try to make me believe that the US Postal don't keep records of their registered shippings.

Again, my first post was only ironic as i taken for granted that my money is lost for ever and that i can't expect anything from a guy like you, who has for only defense to bastardize his accuser...

Believe me, your live would be a little better if you were a more decent person.

I just wish you the best.

JC

I was willing to try and give you the benefit of the doubt and even try to work something out w. you to make you happy even back then. BUT, since you're using this situation w. Cristian to blast me rather than email me to discuss things, as I'd previously asked. Let me remind folks with a bit of your past:



http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1027515/

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t901504/

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t904134-3/

IF I were able to effectively scan RS (my sock monkey is now blocked too)
I'd be able to find more.

I'm not perfect, I've lost many receipts and ship late sometimes but I send people their items, even if it's a bit late.

J

Joseph_Y wrote:

I was willing to try and give you the benefit of the doubt and even try to work something out w. you to make you happy even back then. BUT, since you're using this situation w. Cristian to blast me rather than email me to discuss things, as I'd previously asked. Let me remind folks with a bit of your past:



http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1027515/

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t901504/

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t904134-3/

I'm not perfect, I've lost many receipts and ship late sometimes but I'm not you. I send people their items, even if it's a bit late.

J

I knew you'll show these two names; Arnaud Grunberg(Arnaud) and Joe(SW3packs). It's always the same persons and the same posts....

But yes, i had issues with them.. BUT I SOLVED MY PROBLEMS WITH THEM TOO!!!! It's easy; JUST ASK THEM!!!!!! Arnaud was sent another similar item and Joe was refunded for the loss he suffered... Be updated man!!!!


And please, don't pretend you were trying to work something out with me!!!! You never made it , nor think about it.

I reppeat it to you if you didn't get it yet; I NEVER ASKED YOU A REFUND, NOR TO SEND ME ANOTHER COUPLE OF FIGURE. JUST A TRACKING NUMBER!!!!

Again, i don't even expect a single move from a person that degrade another as only defense... As proof is this pathetic answer coming from you!!

So keep the money and enjoy it!!!

JC

... i also wanted to add:

To be a long time collector don't makes us better and unfailing persons, and i speak for my self too!!!

A rookie collector is as trustable as any other older one. What we judge here is the person himself, not the time we spend collecting.

Each of us made their own mistakes during these past years. With time we try to fix them and make things easier for each other. This should be due to age.

Again, everything depends how we want to solve a situation and if we are ready to make it.

I made my self a lot of mistake during my collecting years and i am not proud of it, but i always tried to fix them and apologies. No matter how old you are or how big is your collection, sometime you have to lower the profile and admit your mistakes.

I don't want to enter in an endless confrontation with Joe. I always said him by private e-mail that things can appens like parcel lost... but sometimes a little move can do miracles... believe me.

Believe me Joe, i want to forget everything... but this sh@t always shows up.

JC

This is a thread about Cristian and Joe

Obviously there may be something more but (in fairness to Christian) it doesn't belong here.

Take it to PM.

I've never denied my flaws as a person and as a collector. Up until my entire life fell to shit after CVI, my shipping times were a week to 2 for most deals, and most things in life were looking up. I am truly sorry IF your package didn't arrive Carlos. But, no excuse, I lost the customs form simple as that (also another deal w. low declared value and no insurance) I've likely lost hundreds of shipping reciepts thru the years, but the packages always showed. Your history is why I was less willing to go out of my way after the fact, as the seed of doubt was there from day one. I even had other collectors trying to convince me to not sell to you because of your past. I still believe that the package I sent to Cristian in Nov, will end up on either my doorstep or his at some point. Stranger things have happened.(like a huge box of prototypes that I'd sent to a buyer in the UK going missing for literally a YEAR, then showing up at my post office). Luckilly in that situation I didn't lose the customs form, so the buyer knew that I was telling the truth. My reputation: I'm a sometimes late shipping,sometimes disorganized, loudmouthed, obnoxious asshole. I'll own that. No problem.

J

Sorry.... You're right John. It's Joe and Cristian thread.

I won't open another thread or take it to PM... It would be ridiculous and a waist of time. If Joe wants to make something, it's up to him, without presure nor publicity.

I won't enter anymore in this thread, i promess, but just let me close with these two words:

If we still here in this forum or another, after all these mistakes and despite all you can hear wrong about you, it's only because we paid for our faults and decided not to hide like many others done in the past.

Today, i am proud of it and i feel better than ever... and most important : i stand here!!!!

Hello Everybody, the figure sent by Joseph with tracking number is here and all is correct

Cristian

Thats Great news

Cristian - This is great news. Glad you have your item and this is officially behind everyone.